"Neither Male or Female in The Church" Follow Up

This is a follow up to my earlier Paul Said there is Neither Male or Female in The Church.  Which was based on Galatians 3:28.

I want to address some of the other passages in the New Testament, mainly other teachings of Paul, people might insist contradict my absolutist understanding of that verse.  Some of course I already anticipated in advance there, or dealt with when defending Female Pastors, [that post is a big out of date only in that I no longer support the traditional office of "pastor" at all, but I definitely support female Presbyters].

In Romans 7 the point of the Torah Passage being cited there is to demonstrate that we are no longer under the Law once we are made Dead to the Law in Christ at Baptism.  I don't think it's meant to be relevant to how Christians should understand Marriage, Gender Roles or the Bride of Christ Doctrine.

The end of 1 Timothy 2 I think is about the Seed of the Woman prophecy, it's not saying any individual woman's salvation is dependent on bearing children.  As for everything alleged to be Sexist about this passage, quite a bit has been written about it already.

1 Corinthians 11:5 is clear that Women were speaking in Church.  1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is what's often cited to say that women are forbidden to speak in Church and thus be pastors.   First of all 1 Corinthians 14 was largely about the misuse of Tongues and other Charismatic practices.  Second that statement can be viewed as Paul quoting a Rhetorical slogan that he then refutes in verse 36 "What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?".

Ephesians 5 is the key passage used to insist the New Testament reinforces patriarchal Gender Roles in Marriage.  But here is what I want to point out, the words for Male and Female used in Galatians 3:28 are not used at all in the entire book of Ephesians.

There are likely a variety of ways Ephesians 5 has been translated, and maybe not even always internally consistent.  What you need to know is Aner/Andros gets translated both Man and Husband while Gune/Gyno gets translated Woman, Wife and maybe sometimes Bride.

In ancient Greek, the words in Galatians are much closer to being clinical terms, with the word for Female there also being the root for the Greek word for breastfeeding.  Aristotle explained their meaning in his Generation of Animals where he says the Arren are those who generate in another and the Thelu are those who generate in themselves, Aristotle on issues was Conservative but not Reactionary, so whatever ones opinion on his philosophy we can trust he got the meanings of words right.  Gyno only seems clinical to us now because of the modern medical profession's selective use of Greek and Latin words.  

Basically, I think Ephesians 5 is about Marriage rather then Gender.  And that in the context of this author also writing Galatians, it can be considered possible that a Female could be a Husband and a Male could be a Wife and a Non-Binary individual could be either or both.

Seneca the Elder’s Controversiae is a teaching manual in legal rhetoric featuring unusual law cases and strategies to be used for or against the defendants involved.  One example he uses comes from Sacaurus consul suffect in 21 CE in his criticism of the tactics used by Hybreas in defending a man who murdered two women he caught having sex with each other.  Sacaurus referred to both women as Tribades (an often debated term associated with Lesbianism during the Greco-Roman era), Hybreas however used Andra of the active partner.  The scene may be interpreted as being comedic, but the use of Andra is not the punchline, it's the set up, the punch line is using "stitched on" to describe the Dildo he looked for didn't find.  This is a first century AD legal precedent for describing a Butch Lesbian as a Husband.  Later in Lucian's Dialogue of the Courtesans Megilla/Megillus and Demonassa call themselves Husband and Wife.

Paul said there is neither Male nor Female in The Church

Galatians 3:28.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I've mentioned this verse before discussing The Bible on Traditional Gender Roles.  And maybe this post risks retreading that same ground.

But I want to rant on how I'm tired of "Traditionalists" saying this is only about how anyone can get Saved.  No, it's not, the context of verses 25-27 are clear, this is about after we're Saved.  He's saying these distinctions don't exist within in the Church, not that they're irrelevant to getting in.

But the hypocrisy is that this isn't how anyone applies the references in the same verse to "Jew nor Greek(Gentile)" or "Bond nor Free".

Dispensationists like Chuck Missler are all about how The Church is a new entity and when you're in it you're neither Jew or Gentile, and so no one regardless of ancestry has to follow The Law.  While Hebrew Roots style Christians like Rob Skiba are all about how Gentiles are grafted into Israel and so everyone regardless of ancestry has to follow The Torah.

Neither supports saying believers can be distinguished between Jew and Gentile.  I don't fully fit into either of those camps but sympathize with aspects of both.  But plenty in both of those camps want to cling to separate laws for men and women regarding how to dress and so on.

Likewise with "Bond nor Free", when Christians are pointing out how many of the Abolitionists were driven by their Faith, this is among the Bible Verses they cited to support abolishing Slavery.  And yet the same modern Christians who think those Abolitionists were so right about Slavery will go 'how dare you think we should abolish gender'.

It is interesting that Chapter 4 keeps using the word "Son" and male pronouns, in-spite of just making clear females are included.  But remember the last verse of chapter 3 is about how we are all made spiritually Abraham's Seed, like what Roman 9-11 is about.

Yes the world into which they (and us still) were born was a patriarchal one.  And those norms influenced the Hebrew Bible, but in Hebrews Paul calls The Law of Moses imperfect and says The Law is now written on our Hearts.  And I've talked before about how gender issues show those imperfections.

So just as Gentiles can now have the Blessings promised to Abraham (which was always the plan in Genesis 12), so now has Christ allowed Women the Freedoms that only Men could have before.  Now also for both of those one could argue that comes with increased responsibilities, but that's for a separate debate about The Law under The New Covenant.

 I've also talked about how the marriage of Genesis 2 was equal unlike Genesis 3.

There are New Testament verses that get used to support patriarchal norms also, how do I address those?

A lot of what's said about Marriage is in the context of discussing The Bride of Christ doctrine, using an Old Testament custom as an illustration of a New Testament doctrine.  Others may be there just because they were living in a world that is still patriarchal.  And we also need to remember that there are words translated "Man" that are meant to be gender neutral.

I believe The Bible is consistent with itself, and Galatians 3:28 is the most unambiguous statement on this issue.  And I think it ties in with how there were no separate courts for Women or Gentiles in Ezekiel's Temple.  The context of the verses around it, 26-29, are basically saying we've not any of these other classes because we are now all in Christ and thus all Sons of God like Christ.

Others have also blogged on this subject, the details often differing from my views but the gist being the same.  Here is one example, and another from the same blog.  And I read this interesting post on naming conventions.

Update October 2018: I have written this follow up post going more into passages not addressed here.
https://solascripturachristianliberty.blogspot.com/2018/07/neither-male-or-female-in-churhc-follow.html

The Bible on Traditional Gender Roles

Men and Women are different, both physically and mentally.  And those differences existed from the creation of distinct genders for humanity in Genesis 2.  But the dividing of men and women into different roles in society, especially the notion that men are supposed to be in charge, is purely the product of The Fall in Genesis 3.

In Genesis 2 the Woman is created to be Adam's "Helper" or "Helpmeet".  Adam may have been created first but they were still meant to be equals.  It is not until Genesis 3:16 that God tells her "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

On this side of the cross The Church should be working to restore things to how God intended, though we do so knowing that won't be fully successful until Jesus returns and sets up his Kingdom.

But still we should be working towards that as much as possible.  That's why good Christians oppose Slavery in-spite of the Torah's tolerance of it.  And why I've argued elsewhere we should oppose Capital Punishment, even though it was an important part of The Law.

The Law of Moses does codify many traditional gender role related laws (but not in the same way most other nations did).  But New Testament believers are not under The Law.  And even in the Old Testament we had people like Deborah.

Ezekiel's description of the future Messianic Temple has no separate Court of Women just as it no longer has a separate court for Gentiles.  Likewise Galatians 3:28 says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

I have another post arguing against those who say women cannot be Pastors/Preachers.

The verses some people dwell on about cross dressing are directed at specific pagan ritual practices involving cross dressing.  They were not meant to be taken as legalistically as they are today by many pastors who want to shame women for simply wearing pants rather then skirts/dresses.  I notice that particular phraseisim isn't as popular in colder states, like Wisconsin where I live.

The extent to which traditional gender roles are still endorsed in The New Testament (and I believe even NT instructions we shouldn't be legalistic about), are entirely limited to to the relationship between Husband and Wife.  Those verses exist purely for the typological application to the relationship between Christ and The Church.  Point is, as long as your unmarried those verses have no relevance to you and your interactions with people of the opposite gender, weather your male or female.  And if you are married they're relevant only to your relationship with your spouse.  Do not go around judging other couples or individuals.

The New Testament certainly doesn't forbid women to be unmarried.  Nor does it forbid women, married or not, from having careers or doing God's work outside the household.

Female Partnerships in The New Testament

Romans 16:12 says "Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord."  Both of those are universally in all Greek and English texts female names.  Both the use of the word "labour" and the context and function of Romans 16 confirm that Tryphaena and Tryphosa should be seen as missionaries.

Paul's usage of only one verb for the two means they're a missionary couple.  The other four missionary couples mentioned are all one male and one female.  Priscilla and Aquila, Andronicus and Junia, Philologus and Julia are the first three, the nature of how they're related isn't specified.  But we know from elsewhere in the New Testament like Acts that Priscilla and Aquilla are husband and wife.  The Fourth is Nereus and his sister.  With the Male-Female pairs it is inferred that if how their related isn't mentioned they are probably husband and wife.

Philippians 4 mentions Euodia and Syntyche.

When he describes the ministry of Euodia and Syntyche, Paul uses a couple of the same terms he had previously applied to Timothy and Epaphroditus.  Paul writes that Euodia and Syntyche had contended together with him “in the Gospel”.  Earlier in the same letter, Paul had also described Timothy as someone who had served with him “in the Gospel” (Phil. 2:22).  Paul goes on to refer to Euodia and Syntyche as his “fellow-workers“.  Earlier, Paul had also referred to Epaphroditus as his “fellow-worker” (Phil. 2:25).  So, according to Paul, the ministries of the women Euodia and Syntyche were comparable to the ministries of the men Timothy and Epaphroditus.

 Early church bishop and theologian, John Chrysostom (c349-407), believed that Euodia and Syntyche were leaders in the Philippian church.  Moreover, he compared them to Phoebe, a woman minister (diakonos) in Cenchrea (Rom. 16:1-2).  In his 13th Homily on Philippians he wrote:

 These women [Euodia and Syntyche] seem to me to be the chief of the Church which was there, and [Paul] commends them to some notable man whom he calls his yokefellow; [Paul] commends them to him, as to a fellow-worker, and fellow-soldier, and brother, and companion, as he does in the Epistle to the Romans, when he says, I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a minister of the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16:1). (Homilies on Philippians, 13)

It is commonly assumed the conflict Paul alludes to is between the two women. However comparing to other Paulian passages I feel the disagreement is between Paul himself and the two women.  Like First Corinthians 1:10.  Earlier in Philippians 1:14-17 Paul refers to others preaching the Gospel in competition to himself.  In verse 18 we see that Paul rejoices at this.  Another perspective has been offered also.

In Philippians 4:2, Paul urged Euodia and he urged Syntyche to, literally, “think the same thing”.  That Paul addressed Euodia and Syntyche personally and individually, reinforces the idea that these women had considerable influence in the Philippian church and probably were leaders.

Were Euodia and Syntyche quarrelling?  This is the assumption most people have, and many Bible versions convey this assumption in their translations.  Paul, however, does not say, or intimate, that Euodia and Syntyche were quarrelling.  Paul simply urged each of them (literally) “to think the same thing in the Lord”.  “Think” (phroneō) is a key word in the letter to the Philippians.  In the preceding verses in Philippians, Paul had been encouraging mature people to have the same thinking as himself – that of reaching out for the goal spiritual perfection (Phil. 3:14-15).  It could well be that Paul is carrying on this thought and, using almost identical language (in the Greek), is saying, “I encourage Euodia and I encourage Syntyche to have the same thinking in the Lord ” that of aspiring to spiritual maturity and perfection (Phil. 4:2).

Chrysostom did not see any sign of a quarrel in Paul’s plea to Euodia and Syntyche; he saw only praise from Paul and wrote: “Do you see how great a testimony he [Paul] bears to their virtue?”  (Homilies on Philippians, 13)

Phillipi was a region where Women were more independent then most parts of Greece at this time.  Acts 16:12-17 even calls attention to this.

I think this information should open people's eyes somewhat.  This pattern of Female Partnerships can possibly be expanded into Extra-Biblical examples, where possible evidence of Homo-Romantic affection exists but is frequently ignored. The acts of Paul and Thecla has another Tryphena sponsor Thecla.  Perpetua and Felicity believed to have been Martyrs in 203 AD  Artemilla and Eubula in the Apocryphal acts of Paul.  Maximilla and Iphidamia in the Acts of Andrew.  Of course there are also themes in these apocryphal stories that reflect some of the problematic Misogynist attitudes of the developing Church as well.  Especially in the Acts of Thomas which features Mygdonia, Marcia and Tetria. 

Was Marriage ordained in Genesis 2 or Genesis 3?

Was Marriage ordained in Genesis 2 or Genesis 3?

A study from my Eschatology blog that is relevant here.

Women can be Pastors/Preachers.

Those who insist that women should not be allowed to be Pastors really have only one Bible passage they base that view on - 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Most articles on the subject never cite any other verses.

It is inadvisable to build a doctrine on something mentioned only once; the Bible is a massive book the repeats itself frequently for a reason. Every detail of it is important and inspired, but not everything in it is doctrine.

The passage in 1 Timothy only says a woman shouldn't teach or hold authority over a man. Speaking for myself, I look upon the roles of Pastor/Preacher as neither a position of authority (the only Authority in the Church is the Holy Spirit), nor strictly speaking a teacher. The Pastor is simply someone who declares the Word of God.

1 Timothy 2:12 ought not be regarded as a blanket rule for all women in all churches. If it were, then women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.

This is the chief passage that is used to oppose women preaching and yet strictly speaking it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. On the contrary, this passage is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that women should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem.  This is purely about the relationship between husband and wife.

Acts 18:25-26 and II Chronicles 34:22-24 clearly refute any notion that women can't teach men as an absolute rule.

To cite 1 Corinthians 14:34-5 as saying women shouldn't speak in church is to take the passage out of context. To do so ignores the point of Paul's entire message to the Corinthians. It's dealing with the problem of people blurting things out exuberantly disrupting the sermon. Elsewhere Paul speaks of women prophesying in church in 1 Corinthians 11:5 and onward deals with things going on in church.

The point of Titus 1:6-7 is a warning against Polygamy (the exact meaning in the Greek is that there be only one wife, not 'at least one', as some make it sound). Paul himself was single and clearly served as a preacher.  Some say Paul wasn't a pastor because neither the word Elder, or Bishop was ever used of him.  Lots of time a word doesn't get used of someone it qualified for.

Something else I would like to point out is that whenever one sees the term 'man' or 'men' in the New Testament, if the word in Greek is 'anthropos', then it actually means 'man' as in 'mankind', i.e. the Human race. 'Arseno' is the term for the male gender. I've discussed that elsewhere. By the same token, in the Old Testament, if the Hebrew is 'adam' or 'enosh', that denotes 'mankind' also; 'ish' and 'zakar' are gender-specific.

The Great Commission, Mark 16:15, "Preach the Gospel," is intended for ALL believers, and to all the Church. The command to "preach the Gospel" makes no distinction between male and female.

Women preachers are a fulfillment of prophecy (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18). "and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy".

Both the Hebrew (N@biy'ah (neb-ee-yaw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 5031), and Greek (Prophetis (prof-ay'-tis); Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4398) are used for 'prophetess', meaning "female prophet".

The role of 'prophet' means "public expounder," and is not limited to just supernatural predictions of the future. The Pastor/Preacher is the post-Pentecost equivalent of the office of 'prophet' in ancient Israel.

As a verb, "prophesy" means "to speak forth, or flow forth." 1 Cor. 14:3 says, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men ('anthopos', meaning 'mankind') to edification, and exhortation and comfort."

The dictionary says that to prophesy is "to speak under divine inspiration...to preach."

Therefore we learn from the original translation, from the Bible interpretation, and from the dictionary, that to prophesy means more than to tell the future, but to speak publicly about the past, present, or future. It is to preach under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

A number of prophetesses are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.

Miriam the sister of Moses was a prophetess, while Aaron held the office of priest, and Moses was the civil head of State during the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness (Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4).

Deborah was a prophetess as well as a judge (judges were the civil heads of state for Israel during the period between Joshua and Saul; Judges 4:4-5). The Bible mentions no fewer than four female heads of state - Deborah; the Queen of Sheba; Athaliah, and Kandake queen of Ethiopia from Acts 8. Only Athaliah is portrayed negatively (Jezebel was not a Queen-Regent, she was influential but did not officially rule). The other three are all positive figures in the Biblical narrative, so female leaders may well have a better over all track record then males.

Isaiah 8:3 mentions a prophetess.

And then there is Huldah from 2 Kings 22:14 and 2 Chronicles 34:22, to whom King Josiah and the Priests had to go to for Divine counsel since the Ark was already gone.

There's also Noadiah from Nehemiah 6:14

I should note also that the Talmud counts the mother of Samuel as well as David's wife Abigail both as prophetesses, although they are not so named in scripture. They did not serve that office but they did prophesy.

In the New Testament yet another prophetess is mentioned in connection with the Nativity - Anna the daughter of Phanuel of the Tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36).

Entering the Dispensation of Grace, it's important to remember that the first news of the Resurrection of Christ was relayed by women to a group of men.

Phillip had four daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:9).

Priscilla is almost always listed before her husband Aquila whenever they are mentioned. Perhaps both were preaching, but she certainly was.  Paul lists her first in Romans 16 and refers to the church that is in their home, it makes nos sense for her to be listed first if she's not the leader.

In Romans 16:1-2, Phebe is called a "succourer" in the KJV translation; the Greek word is 'prostatis' (pros-tat'-is); Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4368 - meaning a woman set over others, a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources.  The feminine for of the same word the KJV translated "rule" in I Timothy 5:17, it's used through out the pastoral epistles to refer to the Overseer's authority.

She is also called a deacone.

1 Timothy 5:2 refers to women Elders, Elder is a synonym for Bishop.  Titus 2:3 also in the Greek.

I could also appeal to Junia or numerous other women mentioned in Romans 16.  Or Nympha from Colossians, which the KJV erroneously changes into a male name and adds a male pronoun.  The church met in her house.

But I shall finish with Euodia and Syntyche form Philippians 4.

When he describes the ministry of Euodia and Syntyche, Paul uses a couple of the same terms he had previously applied to Timothy and Epaphroditus.  Paul writes that Euodia and Syntyche had contended together with him “in the Gospel”.  Earlier in the same letter, Paul had also described Timothy as someone who had served with him “in the Gospel” (Phil. 2:22).  Paul goes on to refer to Euodia and Syntyche as his “fellow-workers“.  Earlier, Paul had also referred to Epaphroditus as his “fellow-worker” (Phil. 2:25).  So, according to Paul, the ministries of the women Euodia and Syntyche were comparable to the ministries of the men Timothy and Epaphroditus.

 Early church bishop and theologian, John Chrysostom (c349-407), believed that Euodia and Syntyche were leaders in the Philippian church.  Moreover, he compared them to Phoebe, a woman minister (diakonos) in Cenchrea (Rom. 16:1-2).  In his 13th Homily on Philippians he wrote:

 These women [Euodia and Syntyche] seem to me to be the chief of the Church which was there, and [Paul] commends them to some notable man whom he calls his yokefellow; [Paul] commends them to him, as to a fellow-worker, and fellow-soldier, and brother, and companion, as he does in the Epistle to the Romans, when he says, I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a minister of the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16:1). (Homilies on Philippians, 13)

 It was not unusual for women to have, leadership roles in Philippi.  Philippi was the chief city of Macedonia (Acts 16:12) and it has been well documented that Macedonian women enjoyed greater freedoms, rights and powers than many other women of that time.

“If Macedonia produced perhaps the most competent group of men the world had yet seen, the women were in all respects the men’s counterparts; they played a large part in affairs, received envoys and obtained concessions for them from their husbands, built temples, founded cities, engaged mercenaries, commanded armies, held fortresses, and acted on occasion as regents or even co rulers.”  W. Tarn and G.T. Griffith in Hellenistic Civilisation, 3rd Edition, 1952, pp89,99; quoted by Ralph Martin (1983:16)

“We can see this [freedom of women] even in the narrative in Acts of Paul’s work in Macedonia.  In Philippi, Paul’s first contact was with the meeting for prayer by a riverside, and he spoke to the women gathered there (Acts 16:13).  Lydia was obviously a leading figure in Philippi (Acts 16:14).[6]  In Thessalonica, many of the chief women were won for Christianity, and the same thing happened at Berea (Acts 17:4 & 12). …it is well worth remembering, when we are thinking of the place of women in the early church and of Paul’s attitude to them, that in the Macedonian churches they clearly had a leading place.” (William Barclay 2003:86)

 Were Euodia and Syntyche church leaders?  Paul’s letter to the Philippians differs to his other letters because Paul specifically includes the overseers (episkopoi) and ministers (diakonoi) in his opening greeting.  Instead of the traditional English translation of “overseers and deacons”,  FF Bruce (1981) translates this phrase in Philippians 1:1 as “chief pastors and other ministers” which may more faithfully convey the meaning of these roles in New Testament times.  It does seem possible that Euodia, Syntyche, and possibly Clement who is mentioned with them, were the overseers or chief pastors of house churches at Philippi.  In the 1st century, independently wealthy women, as well as men, who hosted a church in their own homes may have functioned as overseers (episkopoi).  At the very least, Euodia and Syntyche, like many other 1st century Christian women, were ministers (diakonoi).

So there is certainly no Biblical reason women can't preach.

New insight, what we call the Pasotrial Epistles, should be called the Paulian Pastoral Epistles.  There are two other Pastoral Epistles in The Bible, 2 John and 3rd John.

For some additional context, here  is my post on traditional traditional gender roles in The Bible in general.