Showing posts with label Gerrard Winstanley. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Gerrard Winstanley. Show all posts

Tuesday, November 7, 2023

Arminian Universal Salvation

Strictly speaking Universal Salvation is considered a separate position from either Calvinism or Arminianism, that schism that happened among the Dutch Reformed was predicated on both sides assuming not everyone will be saved.

However among modern proponents of Universal Salvation on the Internet who came out of Protestant Denominations, they mostly come out of fairly mainline ones and thus try to sound more Calvinist then they do Arminian, Peter Hiett is explicit that he is a 4 Point Calvinist removing only Limited Atonement, he came out of Presbyterianism.  He refuses to even mention Arminius when talking about his belief in Unlimited Atonement.

For me though there is only one point of Calvinism I kinda do agree with and that's actually the one Arminianism doesn't actually disagree with, Total Depravity.  Unfortunately that is the most easy to strawman/misunderstand of the points of Calvinism because of modern people reading the modern connotations of "depravity" onto this term coined when King James was still on the Throne.  It simply refers to the fact that All Have Sinned, that Sin is a disease we've all been infected with, that it's only possible to follow God if God is calling us via The Holy Spirit.  The difference between what Calvinism believes and what I and Arminians believe on this is simply whether God is calling everyone or only a chosen few.  The Arminian Agreement with Calvinism here is why they aren't Pelegians, Pelegius did deny Total Depravity and was one of the first to condemn Universal Salvation by associating it with Origen.  It's actually not that different from Secular Determinism, meaning I was mostly wrong in the past when I insinuated Arminains would be in agreement with Existentialists.

The other three Articles of Remonstrance vs Points of Calvinism are bound up in how Protestantism has conflated Salvation with other things.  

Elect is just a fancy way of saying Chosen, not every reference to Election in the New Testament is about the same choosing, however I view not one of them as being a reference to Salvation.  I already have a post proving that "the many" can refer to everyone so "Many are called but few are Chosen" only makes sense if the Chosen are those who Choose to answer the Call rather then Refuse it.  They choose to be part of The Kingdom on Earth, to be those proclaiming The Gospel that Death will be swallowed up in Victory.

Grace is resistible during this mortal life but eventually those who resist it now will be Saved regardless because God never gives up, just like an Anime protagonist.

Jesu said "all who Persevere to the end will be saved" in the Olivet Discourse, that people started thinking it was about Eternal Salvation is frankly embarrassing to all sides of the argument.  Regardless I come at this form the perspective of someone who's prior Soteriology was Free Grace Eternal Security.  Now however I do believe there is something a Believer obtains when they place their Faith in Christ that can be lost if they renounce that Faith (I struggle to define what exactly that is however), and I also believe that our Rewards are contingent upon obedience, but Salvation was never contingent upon either Faith or Obedience.  You can't lose something that wasn't your responsibility to begin with.

So in a sense I can claim to agree with Arminius over Calvinists on all Five Articles from a Universal Salvation perspective, and I'm not the first.

First of all there is evidence that Arminius himself was at least an Inclusivist.

The General Baptists of the early 17th Century were named that primarily after their positron on Atonement.  John Smyth and Thomas Helwys were full Arminians who in the statements of faith they made proclaimed even a belief that Salvation could be lost.  But the larger General Baptist movement did include some who taught Universal Salvation.

According to Thomas Edwards there were even Universalists in John Goodwin's congregation, the leading Arminian Congregationalist.

Ariel Hessayon wrote a thesis you can find online as a PDF called Winstanley and Baptist Thought documenting how certain ideas of Gerrard Winstanley he got from the General Baptists since he had been one for a time.  Winstanley stopped being a Baptist because he decided to stop preforming the ordinances at all for the same reason as The Quakers.  In fact a lot of the early converts to Quakerism came out of the General Baptists.  General Baptist Henry Denne also anticipated the Quaker Inner Light Doctrine.  (18th Century Universalist James Relly also went on to reject the Earthly Sacraments but for some reason was buried in a Baptist Cemetery.)

Sarah Apetrei has written about Universal Salvation being popular among specifically Baptist Women during the English Revolution in her book The Reformation of The Heart: Gender and Radical Theology in The English Revolution.

Amusingly the Baptist Perpetuity Doctrine is today usually taught among Calvinistic Baptists but it is in fact only the General Baptists who can claim a lineage through the Anabaptists and Waldenses, indeed the Anabaptists and Waldenses seem to be who Arminius himself got his Soteriological ideas from.

Another informative PDF is The Baptist Universalist: Elhanan Winchester by Robin Parry.  Winchester was first converted to Credo-Baptism by a Free Will Baptist then backslide into the Calvinism he was raised in for awhile before finally being lead to Universal Salvation mainly by the precedent for it that existed among the "German Baptists" the Schwarzenau Brethren another group descended from the Anabaptists.

John Wesley is considered a type of Arminian, and there is debate about whether or not he became a Universalist soon before he died.  Soren Kierkegaard also developed a very Free Will centric theology but expressed in his private journals a preference for Universal Salvation.

I have prior posts on this blog responding to arguments that Universal Salvation conflicts with God respecting Free Will.  Some Free Gifts can't be rejected.

Saturday, May 7, 2022

The Reformation and the Resurgence of Democracy

It is pretty well known that what we commonly call THE French Revolution was not the last French Revolution.  But what if I told you that, from a certain point of view, it wasn’t the first either?  It can be argued that the French Wars of Religion of the 16th century were a French Revolution that was Protestant rather than Secular in nature. But tragically like many of the later Secular French Revolutions it was betrayed by the very person who won it, Henry Bourbon converting to Catholicism was the Clerical Equivalent of Napoleon being Crowned Emperor. 


This post is a sequel of sorts to Capitalism is Atheistic in Nature, I’m not titling it as a direct parallel because I can't claim Democracy wouldn't exist without Christianity, Ancient Greece definitely had it, and I believe so did Sumerian Kish before Etana.  I mentioned how Capitalism loving New Atheists and YouTube Skeptics love to credit the rise of Capitalism to the Secularism of the Enlightenment, but they also claim credit for Democracy and like the Christian Capitalists of the Eisenhower era try to paint Capitalism and Democracy as inseparable.  But the truth is Capitalism and Democracy are actually incompatible, the only truly Democratic socio-economic system would be Anarcho-Communism, and the only acceptable Representative Democracies are Socialist Republics like Cuba and Vietnam.


That post also acknowledged that some people blame/credit the Protestant Reformation for Capitalism.  The Renaissance and the Enlightenment had both Protestant and Secular sides to them (also a Catholic side but the Catholic Renaissance and Enlightenment was like the New Deal and Huey Long, attempting to appease the people to keep them from running into the arms of the revolutionaries).  And those two sides were not always mutually exclusive, you had Christians who were largely Secular in their mindset or methodology, and non Christians unafraid to draw on Scripture to support their ideas like Thomas Paine in Common Sense.  My thesis in that prior post was that Capitalism is chiefly the product of the Secular side, while here I shall argue that the Return of The Demos was mostly the product of the Reformation.


Part 1: Ecclesiastical Polity


Church Governance was not the initial main point of dispute upon which the Reformation started, but it very quickly became an important topic of debate.  There are primarily three different positions on Church Governance, others do exist like the weird system Methodism has, but they were devised much later and can be argued to be simply fiddling around with these three.


Episcopal Polity: The form used by The Church of The East, The Oriental Orthodox, The Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans (Episcopalian as a name for a denomination usually means Anglicans in the United States), and some Lutheran Churches.


Presbyterian Polity: The form used by the Reformed Churches of the Continent in Switzerland, The Netherlands and parts of Germany as well as the Huguenots and Protestant minorities in France.  But Presbyterian as the name of a denomination refers to the denomination founded by John Knox which became most popular in Scotland, they are today also the largest Christian Church in South Korea.


Congregational Polity:  As the name of a specific denomination refers to a subgroup of the Puritans that included the founders of Boston MA and Oliver Cromwell., but it was also the Polity used by most of the most well known Puritans including the Plymouth Pilgrims, the Baptists and the Quakers.  It also seems to apply to Anabaptist sects like the Mennonites, Hutterites and Amish.  It can be hard to determine with Proto-Protestant groups that no longer exist, but it looks to me like the Waldenses and Taborite were probably Congregational.


Episcopal Polity is basically Clerical Monarchy, Presbyterian Polity is Clerical Oligarchy or Parliamentarianism, and Congregational Polity is Clerical Democracy.  There are of course differences within each form as well, for example what Separates Catholicism from other Episcopalians is viewing The Bishop of Rome as beyond just a Duke(Bishop) Archduke(Archbishop), Prince(Cardinal) or King(Patriarch) but as essentially the Emperor of The Church.


I like to describe my own personal position on Ecclesiastical Polity as Congregationalism with Presbyterian Characteristics.  The reason being that the most well known Congregationalists, those who bear the name and Baptists, seem to be classified this way chiefly for their localism over regionalism but sure seem to have Episcopal Characteristics in how the Local Pastor is viewed.  But even in Presbyterian Denominations it still seems like the weekly Church service is usually one person giving a speech everyone else listens to, which I view as a monarchial tending problem itself. And that criticism itself parallels criticisms of modern Secular Democracies. In many ways I think the Quakers are doing most things better then anyone else.


All three words used to define these forms of Church Government are Biblical, so the first step to seeing who is Biblically Correct is looking into how these words are used in The Bible.


Episcopas is a Greek word that is most literally translated Overseer, but in translations like the KJV more often becomes Bishop, and KJV only Independent Baptists usually use Bishop as the chief Biblical synonym for what they mean by Pastor.  Interestingly the Spartan title of Ephor is derived from the same Greek Root but in a different dialect making it equivalent in it's essential meaning.


Presbyter is a Greek word that is usually translated Elder but I actually feel like Senior conveys the intended meaning better at least in how The New Testament uses it.  Better yet, if I were based on my perspective as a Christian who watches a lot of Anime asked to consult on a Japanese translation of The Bible, I would advise them to translate Presbyter as Senpai and Newtron as Kohai at least in 1 Peter and the Pastoral Epistles.


Neither of these words was meant to refer to an office in any kind of hierarchy, the word “office” is used, but it means a job or function not a position of authority.  I’m a supporter of the House Church Movement, which means I’ve observed how there were no Church buildings till the 3rd Century, the Early Church met in each other’s homes.  Any context where Episcopas seems to be in use in a very singular sense, as in this Church at this time seemingly only has one, it’s probably the owner of the house they’re currently meeting in, the host of the meeting is naturally also responsible for organizing and overseeing it.  But in other contexts like Acts 20 and 1st Peter even many who defend the Episcopalian developments of the 2nd through 4th Centuries admit that all the Presbyters are Overseers in those passages.  However I feel the word Deacon is also used interchangeably with Episcopas, Deacon means a servant.


When 1st Peter is talking about elder and younger believers, I don’t think he means by how long it’s been since they came out of their mother’s womb, but by how long they’ve been a Christian.  Anarchist Philosophers have argued it does not conflict with Anarchism to defer to the authority of someone more experienced than you on a certain subject, and for Christian Anarchists that is how Divine Authority is reconciled, God is older and more experienced than all of us but Scripture actually does depict Him as okay with His decisions being questioned.  This is a form of that, Peter is saying that newer believers should seek guidance from those with more experience, but also stresses how those elders need to take seriously the responsibility that comes with that.


William Tyndale chose not to use the word Church in his English Translation of The New Testament, during this early period some Protestants were concerned the word Church itself was perhaps too inherently owned by the Catholic Church, and it was in fact never a good direct translation of The Greek.  So the Greek word Ekklesia he translated as Congregation, and even in the KJV (which is largely just a revision of Tyndale) and more modern Bibles "Congregation" instead of Church is still used a few times.  Because it is a pretty good literal translation of what Ekklesia means, but not the only way to translate it. 


You see the word Ekklesia was previously a big part of Greek politics and discussions of politics where in those contexts it is often translated Assembly.  The Ekklesia was in Athens and other Greek Democracies the word for the gathering together of the citizenry to discuss an issue and then vote on it, but they did exist in less strictly Democratic states as well since even the most monarchial monarchies often felt the need to consult the people.


The New Testament usage is not unrelated to the Civil Government usage, The Church is the Kingdom of Heaven, and Christ is King but even in The Davidic Monarchy the King still had to involve The People, indeed Ekklesia is also used in the Septuagint to translate equivalent Hebrew Words, as well as in Stephen’s Description of the Mosaic gathering of the people in Acts 7.  And there are hints in the New Testament of the local Ekklesia making decisions democratically.


So the first argument for Congregationalism is that only Congregationalists don't need to massively add to the meaning of the Biblical word they're named for. The word itself was inherently an expression of Democracy in Ancient Greek. Meanwhile Episcopas was not a word Monarchists would use for a Monarch and the closest similar word used in a political context was an example of representative democracy.


Most ancient Oligarchical forms of Government originated as Councils of Elders including pre Solon Athens and Sparta, either the heads of all of the Tribes families, or the heads of the aristocratic ruling families like Parliament's House of Lords.  A Council of Elders is what the Latin in origin word Senate actually means etymologically, and it’s also what the Sanhedrin is in Numbers 11 (Josephus called it the Senate of the Jews).  A council of Elders can play a role in how a Democracy functions, but it shouldn’t be the final and certainly not the only authority.


The Episcopalians’ main argument is that they have a lot of precedent on their side, the Church had been pretty Episcopal for well over a thousand years, you can’t even conceivably blame Constantine for this one. Indeed I don’t think one single big bad is to blame, though Ignatius of Antioch is the earliest Church writer we have who explicitly argued for Episcopalianism.  Ignatius gets referred to as a student of the same “John” who Polycarp was a student of, but the oldest sources on Polycarp being a student of a “John”, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Papias, mention only him and not Ignatius, and Ignatius in the letter he supposedly wrote to Polycarp makes no mention of them having a shared mentor, and neither refers to a “John” as their mentor in any of their own authentic writings.  Papias the oldest source on Polycarp and this John clearly distinguishes him from John The Apostle calling him John the Presbyter. 


Some supporters of Episcopalianism will admit that originally Churches founded by Peter and Paul were Presbyterian (I don’t even think they were that) but claim that "Johannian" Churches in Asia were Episcopalian, basing that largely on Ignatius and Polycarp.  However Polycarp in his one letter refers to himself as one Episcopas among a group. But either way something starting in Asia isn't a good sign since Paul referred to Asia departing from him, and in Revelation 2-7 most of the Churches in this region have some doctrinal problems. I'm not the only person to argue that Episcopal Polity is the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans.


The second century seems to be the key transitional century for the rise of Episcopalianism, some have argued it was a “necessary” development for dealing with the Heretics, needing an authoritative leader to refute and oppose them.  These Heretical sects were often founded by individual Heretics with a bit of a cult of personality around them like Cerinthus, Maricon and Valentinius.  So the "Proto Orthodox" responded to the Heretics by imitating their tactics.


But the second century was also the century over the course of which Platonism supplanted Stoicism as the leading Metaphysical Philosophy of the Greco-Roman World, including the beginning of its influence on Christianity. 


In Stoicism and Early Christianty I argue that the Early Christians were somewhat Stoic, but Stoics who were socially and morally more like the original Stoicism of Zeno rather than later Roman Stoicism.  Zeno was born a Phoenician on Cyprus but he founded his School in Athens.  The original Stoics were people who’s criticism of Athenian Democracy was that it wasn’t Democratic enough, they wanted full Gender Equality and the abolition of Slavery, as well as a Socio-Economic system we would today call Communist. This lines up well with Paul in Galatians 3 who says that in Christ's Ekklesia there is no distinction between Male/Female or Free/Slave or Jew/Gentile (Native/Immigrant).


However Xenophon, Plato and Aristotle were Athenians who HATED Democracy, they idolized many aspects of Sparta (though in The Laws attributed to Plato the Athenian blames Sparta for the spread of the Homosexuality he wanted to stamp out).  Aristotle of course broke with his former teacher on many things, and his books on Politics criticized both of Plato’s constitutions, he praised Sparta but ultimately gave higher praise to Carthage and Solon’s Constitution. It was actually Xenophon who was the most unconditionally in-love with Sparta.


Plato’s Republic gets misconstrued as Communist because it technically has no Private Property, but it is still very much a class based society, there was no discussion of liberating the Slaves.  In The Republic the Monarchy of a "Philosopher King" is Plato's ideal but an Oligarchy of "Guardians" is the acceptable alternative in the absence of a perfect ruler, and so I suspect Platonized Christianity gave rise to both Presbyterianism and Episcopalianism. The Republic's Communalism was only for the elite class of Guardians not the common people which I think may play a role in where Monasticism came from. Plato's Statesman also argued for Monarchy being the ideal.


But a degree of congregationalism might have survived longer then we generally assume. Just look at the history between the first two Ecumenical Councils when the Empire actually had two Arian Emperors. People will often take the the technical fact that both Arian Emperors at least started as Eastern Emperors to imply Arianism was actually popular in the East during this time, but this ignores the history of the Bishoprics of Antioch and Alexandria, where Arian Emperors kept trying to remove the Nicene Bishops like Athanasius of Alexandria, Eustathius of Antioch and Cyril of Jerusalem and replace them with personally appointed Arians yet the people of those Congregations refused to accept them. Same with the Arab Rebellion lead by Queen Mavia agaisnt the Arian Emperor Valens. It even happened in Constantinople itself, the Nicene Paul I of Constantinople always had the popular support of the people, Cosntantius II used violent force to defy them.

Or even later when we look at Bede's account of Augustine of Canterbury's disagreements with the Briton/Welsh clergy at meetings like the Synod of Chester, the Bishops themselves left the meeting open to at least some of Augustine's proposed changes but said they'd have to check with the People first, at it's core that's Congregationalism.

Now remember what I said about Capitalism and Democracy being incompatible?  Part of that is how Socialists believe Democracy should be expanded to the workplace.  Most Corporations are either Monarchies with one absolute CEO or Oligarchies ruled by a Board of Directors representing the wealthy shareholders. Worker owned Co-Opts would be Democracy but they are rare, the current status quo actively opposes allowing such experiments to succeed.

I've talked about the doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers before, but those passages often come hand in hand with the Kingship of all Believers. Christ and God are both King, but they intend to share their Scepter with Us.

Paul Cartledge has a lecture you can watch on YouTube called Ten Things You Really Should Know about Ancient Greek Democracy. One of the points of the lecture is that it seems like in ancient times the word Democracy may have been inherently derogatory and thus rarely if ever used by people who actually supported it, most of the ancient Greek works that have survived are not very pro Democracy, even the writings of the early Stoics are mostly lost. So in that context the word Democracy not being used in The New Testament may itself be evidence that it's one of the few pro Democracy Ancient Greek Texts to survive. And maybe the word Ekklesia could have been the key word in whatever now lost label the ancient Democrats called themselves.

Here are some articles on Congregational Polity, one of them ties in their Dispensationalism which I disagree with.

That last one contains more documentation on what I said above, popular election was playing a role in how Bishop were chosen all through the 4th Century.

Part 2: Applying Ecclesiastical Governance to Civil Governance.


Protestants applying their views of Church Government to Civil Government started before the Reformation proper actually, when we look at the history of Proto-Protestantism, John Ball and his Peasant Revolt was contemporary with John Wycliffe and the Hussite Reformation was soon followed by the Taborite Rebellion.


Then not long after Martin Luther’s message had developed a big following Thomas Munster led an Anarcho-Communist revolt in Germany, then Luther being the evil scumbag he was ordered the Aristocratic Feudal Lords he had converted to his new doctrine to put them down, and there were other Anabaptist revolts as well, but by the end of the 16th century most Anabaptists were absolute Pacifists.


It was Rebels seeking to empower Presbyterianism who were the first to gain success with Zwingli making his preference for Aristocracy clear followed by the Dutch Revolt that started in the 1560s.  And then the English Revolutions of the 16th Century only empowered Parliament (the Presbytery they’d had since long before the Reformation) not the People.  Though more genuinely Congregational rebel groups were involved like Gerrard Winstanley’s Diggers.


Jennifer Tolbert Roberts in Athens On Trial: The Antidemocratic Tradition in Western Thought observes in the chapter on the English Revolution how it was the philosophers of Absolute Monarchy like Thomas Hobbes and Robert Filmer who had studied the Classical Pagan Texts of Greece and Rome and felt they supported their conclusions since it was mostly critics of Athens who's works have survived not Athens' defenders. While it was the most radical of Democrats like the Diggers and Levelers who showed no interest in any secular Classics but based their conclusions on how they interpreted The Bible.

And to verify my point about Democracy and Capitalism not going together originally, the earliest Enclosures of the Commons done in the 17th Century were by the Jacobite Monarchs, James I and Charles I, they were among the grievances that the Presbyterian and Congregational rebels held against them, and then after that Revolution they were put on hold till deep into the Hanover period. England's first even kind of Democratic Revolution was in part a resistance to primitive Capitalism. Robert Filmer not John Locke was the real English Language innovator of the modern Capitalist understanding of Private Property, and he was staunchly anti-Democracy.

Over in the Colonies New England was founded by Congregational Puritans, and Pennsylvania by the even more Congregational Quakers.  But Maryland was founded by Catholics and the South by Royalist Anglican Cavilers loyal to the Jacobite Monarchs.  In a way the American Civil War was a long delayed Sequel to the English Civil War.  Atun Shei Films has a video on Puritanism that acknowledges both their good and bad points.   It was also under the influence of Puritans like Richard Bernard that England under Cromwell ended it's ban on Jews that had stood since the 13th Century.


In the 17th Century English Revolution different people's positions on Ecclesiastical Polity lined up pretty consistently with their positions on Civil Governance, the Catholics and Anglicans were the Monarchists, the Presbyterians were the Parliamentarians and the Puritans and Quakers were the Democrats.


Later on plenty of Protestants would become openly explicit in not wanting the same kind of Governance for The State they do for The Church.  Alexander Hamilton’s Federalist Party was religiously speaking dominated by the New England Congregationalists, a denomination founded on Clerical Localism, so why were they so opposite politically?  Well they still had the Puritan Attitude that the State should regulate Morality, so they wanted a strong Federal Government regulating public morality, and that's what Hamilton and Adams promised them.


But it's also noticeable that in-spite of their voting base being Congregationalist the leadership of the party was largely Episcopalians, Hamilton, James Wilson, Gouverneur Morris, Robert Morris, Rufus King, Charles Cotesworth Pickeny, John Rutledge, Edward Rutledge, George Walton and William Samuel Johnson. And then there's Patrick Henry who was a rare Federalist who had been an opponent of ratifying the Constitution. These are largely the same people Eric Nelson talks about in Royalist Revolution who wanted the office of President to be King in all but name. There were Congregationalists who ultimately sided with the Democratic-Republicans like Samuel Adams, Josiah Bartlett and both representatives of New Hampshire at the Constitutional Convention. John Hancock never joined either Party but his concerns about the Constitution clearly showed Democratic-Republican leanings.


Modern Evangelical Dominionists will talk about how the phrase “Separation of Church and State” comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a Pastor, and say it explains how it's there to protect the Church from the State not the other way around.  The historical context they are leaving out is that this was a Baptist Pastor, and back then Baptists were very much still a minority religion even in the State they had founded.  And the Boston Congregationalists especially hated the Baptists remembering Roger Williams as an Apostate from their Church.  Jefferson was promising a minority religion protection from the majority religion in bed with the then ruling Party.


I don’t feel like retreading all the Roger Williams territory here, I recommend John M. Barry’s book Roger Williams and The Creation of The American Mind.


Roger Williams and John Clarke weren't the only association the Baptists had with the fight for Freedom of Religion, it goes back to the founders of the General Baptists John Smyth and Thomas Helwys, and after them Richard Overton of the Levellers during the English Revolution and John Leland contemporary with the American Revolution.  Nor are they the only association the Baptists have with the Abolitionist movement, Elhanan Winchester was a prominent early American Abolitionist as was Morgan John Rhys, Slavery in the British Empire was finally outlawed as the result of a Slave Rebellion in Jamaica lead by Baptists called the Baptist War, and Charles Spurgeon also strongly opposed Slavery, and George Washington Williams is also worth mentioning as are Amos Tuck and Edwin Hurlbut. The Randalite Free Will Baptists were also known for their opposition to Slavery Then in more modern times the PNBC was important to the Civil Rights Movement.  The Southern Baptists were originally very much the atypical Baptists, breaking off from the the oldest American Baptist Church (the one founded by Williams and Clarke) because it opposed Slavery, it was a long complicated history that made them the largest Protestant Church in the U.S.  And even today while Southern Baptists are America's largest single Baptist Denomination they are still less then 50% of the total.


However the Quakers became even more virulent abolitionists.


But let’s go back to the discussion of France.  John Calvin himself made a Christian argument for Regicide during the French Wars of Religion.  During the French Enlightenment, of the key Philosophs who died before The Revolution broke out, the only one who was a Christian was Rousseau who was raised Calvinist went Catholic for a while but then returned to Calvinism. He was also the only one who was a Communist rather than a Liberal.  He is a key transitional figure in the Secularization of Communism as unlike prior Christian Communists his argument for it was Secular.  Montesquieu was however not as hostile to religion as Voltaire and did use The Bible in his writings, though exactly how has been misrepresented by certain Evangelicals.


The French Revolution was the beginning of the Secularization of both Democracy and Communism, and at the same time the final stage of them being seemingly separated from each other.


France was the first place where certain ideas that began as inherently Protestant were slowly able to be considered by Catholics, and eventually non Christians. Partly this is because of the French perspective that people like Calvin provided to the Reformed Tradition from the beginning. Partly it's because Rousseau was good at making his ideas sound appealing to those who don't share his Faith. And partly it's because a lot of the Philosophs and early French Revolutionary leaders were kind of Anglophiles.


Contrary to popular stereotypes about the French Revolution, it was initially lead more by Christians (mostly Catholics but some Protestants) some were even clergy, the Atheists and Deists were present from the start but it took them years to take over. These Christians include Emmanuel Joseph Sieyes who authored the Revolution's original Declaration of Independence, so too probably were his allies Baily and Lafayette. Jacques Necker and other Calvinists from Geneva. Jean-Paul Rabaut Saint-Etienne who authored France's first Edict of Toleration. Claude Fauchet who originally lead the Cercel Social where he first argued for a Rousseau inspired Democratic reorganization of the Gallican Church. Henri Gregoire, Antoine-Adrien Lamourette, Pierre Claude Froncois Dauno and Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Dobel who were important supporters of the Civil Constitution of The Clergy. And Jacques Roux who was the leader of the actual Communists of the Revolution (the Jacobins were all Classical Liberals) the Enrages.


Same was true for the English Sympathizers of The Revolution which include Richard Price, the Christian Communist Thomas Spence and the founders of modern Unitarianism Gilbert Wakefield and Joseph Priestley.


There is a neat video on YouTube about how Rousseau's radical Democracy came from the local largely informalized Democratic values of his hometown of Geneva.

The Roots of Modern Democracy

Well the Geneva that Rousseau grew up in was a product of Calvin. The Regional Synods of we usually associate with Presbyterianism came from others not Calvin himself, Calvin organized a local Church Government for the city of Geneva, in the grand scheme of things he may well have been more Congregationalist then people assume.

Thursday, March 3, 2022

Capitalism is Atheistic in Nature.

Economic Liberalism is what I mainly mean by Capitalism for the purpose of this post, the current Justifying Ideology of Capitalism.  But that being the title of the post is problematic because too many Americans don't know what Liberalism means.

Adam Smith is often called the "Philosopher of Capitalism" as if he is to Capitalism what Karl Marx and Fredrich Engels are to Communism. Adam Smith was also an Atheist, there is some dispute about this technically, some try to argue he was more a Deist (which was basically Atheism with plausible deniability) but from my research he was definitely an Atheist.

Before Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations he wrote The Theory of Moral Sentiments which was basically an attempt to explain the development of morality naturalistically.  His Economic Philosophy was built on this secular moral philosophy.  David Hume was an English Economic Philosopher who came just a little before Smith and overlapped with him, in some ways his ideas are more inline with the beliefs of modern Apologists of Capitalism them Smith's and he was even more of an Atheist.

A French laissez-faire Economist contemporary with Hume and Smith was Paul d'Holbach who was also an Atheist, as was Denis Diderot and Jacques-Andre Naigeon, meanwhile Voltaire and Montesquieu were Deists and also didn't speak much on Economics directly.  The Physiocrats were also definitely Secularists though exactly what they believed about Religion I can't pin down.  And don't think you can pretend Voltaire could have bene a socialist, he was a Bourgeoise intellectual who "never intended to enlighten shoemakers and servants".  The only Socialist among the major French Philosophs was Rousseau who was also the most Christian of them.

The most actually religious Economist of the late 18th early 19th Century was Thomas Malthus, but while some of Malthus's most well known ideas were influential on future Capitalist Economists he himself was not one, he was critiquing the rise of Capitalism from a more old fashioned late Feudalist perspective.

Later in the 20th Century a woman named Ayn Rand would develop a philosophy that is essentially Capitalism in it's purest most unrestrained and unapologetic form.  She was also a rabid Atheist who was frequently enraged at seeing American Christians try to co-opt her ideas to serve their Christianized Capitalism.  Rand was also a stated influence on the philosophy of Anton Levy the founder of the Church of Satan, which is exactly the Satanism people mean when they say Satanists are actually Atheists and Satan is just a symbol to them, their Satan is a symbol of Capitalist Individualism.  Another inlfuence on Levy was the 1896 individualist text Might Is Right.

Between Smith and Rand it continued to be Atheists making vital contributions to Individualist philosophy, from the Atheist Existentialist Philosophers cited in Josh McNamee's Man of Steel video, to Charles Bradlaugh to Nietzsche and Social Darwinists like Herbert Spencer, to H.L. Mencken, Charles Lee Smith, James Hervey Johnson and Irving Fisher.  John Stuart Mill was also an Atheist though this wasn't publicly known while he was alive, between Mill and Smith were Jeremy Bentham, Francis Place and James Mill.  And to more specifically look at mid 20th century Economists, whether you're looking at the Austrian School, the Keynesian School or the Chicago School, secularists like Milton Friedman, Keynes, Murry Rothbard and Hayek are always at the center.  

Capitalism as a Mode of Production was very much forming already before we reach Hume, d'Holbach and Smith, but that happened because of economic developments that were not exactly pre-planned or premediated.  The Philosophers of Liberalism who came before them were not thinking much about economics but mostly focusing on what they and the Socialists had in common, opposing Absolute Monarchy.  The 1640-1660 English Revolution was Socio-Economically speaking an internal dispute within Feudalism as it had been operating in England for Centuries, the only group involved in all of that who were calling for a total reworking of how society is Economically structured were the Diggers lead by Gerrard Winstanley who were Anarcho-Communists, and they were basing their ideas on The Bible.

John Locke is the one commonly cited exception to all that, he is frequently given the credit for truly innovating the modern Capitalist notion of Private Property.  But James Tully in A Discourse on Property: John Locke and his Adversaries showed that what Locke actually said is more compatible with Socialism.  David Hume was actually quite critical of Locke, the problem is Locke's Labor Theory of Value would be co-opted by d'Hollbach, Smith and their followers.  The Labor Theory of value is often associated with Capitalism because of it's association with Locke and Smith, but the truth is only Socialists and Communists believe in it unconditionally, Capitalists keep needing to qualify it.

Nicolas Barbon was another Christian Whig who contributed to economics, but he was mainly advocating for Paper Money which in the short term Communists are more supportive of then Austrian School Liberals.  John Law continued his work in that regard.  Their ideas were first put into practice in a Proto-Capitalist context but still not necessarily inherently Capitalist.

Some people both for and against it like to tie the origins of Capitalism to the "Protestant Work Ethic", and yeah to a certain extent early Primitive or Proto Capitalism emerged in Protectant parts of Europe earlier then it did in Catholic countries.  You could even parallel different forms or elements of Capitalism to different forms of Protestantism, Lutheranism was it still mixed with late Feudalism, Arminianism the hyper Individualism, Calvinism would be Fascist-Capitalism, and then Britannia is where they all mixed together before being transported to her Colonies.   

But it's important to remember that during the first 2 or 3 centuries the Reformers really wanted to be seen as more rationalist then the Catholics and rejecting of their superstitions, that's why Cessationism was invented by the Reformers and why for a long time they didn't do Exorcisms.  

And that in turn is why a lot of things Atheists believe in are partly protestant in origin but simply taking the next step.  A lot of the bad history New Atheists perpetuate began as protestant myths to demonize the Catholic Church, the Hypatia and Library of Alexandria stuff came form Edward Gibbon (as does many bad ideas about how and why Rome fell) and the comparative mythology stuff started with Alexander Hislop, and the Christmas is actually Pagan stuff started with the Puritans.  As I've said on this blog before, Existentialism is basically Atheistic Arminianism, and others have called Objectivism Prosperity Gospel for Atheists.

All that said I also have a lot of skepticism of the "Protestant Work Ethic" thesis.

A lot of Internet discourse over the last decade or so has been tied to how the Skeptic Community on YouTube and other New Atheists revealed their true reactionary colors (Christopher Hitchens' Legacy is lucky he passed away just before all this started, because if you look into him you'll see he'd absolutely have been with them), and that came with them being bold evangelists of Capitalism, seeing Capitalism along with Democracy as a great Enlightenment accomplishment of Secularism overthrowing the "Dark Ages" of Feudalism which they incorrectly blame on religion.

Atheists on the True Left still exist, but people making Atheism the first thing they care about, the core of their identity, are even when trying to distance themselves from the Reactionary New Atheists usually Social Democrats at best.  

New Atheism isn't actually new, Antitheists co-opting Gibbon's bad history began with Voltaire.  And then during The French Revolutions the immediate successors of d'Holbach were the Hebertists who showed a lot of Proto-Fascistic tendencies with their forced Dechristianization campaign and helping send many of the Communists (called the Enragés at the time) or even just Liberals who wanted to Redistribute Property like the Girondins to the Guillotine.  

Even the Antifeminism that started the 2011 downward spiral was already there in how they Martyred early Feminists like Olympe de Gouges, she was beheaded 7 days before the Festival of Reason and she was later used specifically as an example to silence other women by supporters of the Dechristianization campaign.

Then in the 19th Century Bruno Bauer began popularizing the absurd thesis that Jesus did not exist which went hand in hand with his well known opposition to Karl Marx.  You see Marx and Engels were Atheists but like sane Atheists they believed Jesus existed and that the Early Christians were ancient Proto-Communists and thus part of his thesis of all history being Class Struggle.  So to Bauer refuting the very existence of Jesus was an attack on the Marxist understanding of History as much as it was mainstream Christianity.  Bauer was also the Anti-Semite who wrote The Jewish Question.

And speaking of the Marxist understanding of history, every time a New Atheist talks about Wars being caused by Religion, that is fundamentally incompatible with a Marxist analysis of history which always looks for the economic causes and sees them as the primary cause.  And in turn Evangelical/Conservative Christians seeking to "debunk" the notion of Religious Wars by emphasizing the Economic Causes are unwittingly engaging in Marxist analysis.

Max Stirner was another Atheist Individualist Philosopher who connected Christianity and Communism in his opposition to both.  

Another problem with letting yourself get lost in the nominal Anti-Religionism of Marx and Engels is that Marx actually had a lot of good things to say about Capitalism, he considered it an improvement over Feudalism and a good contributor to Human advancement that was simply now beginning to outlive it's usefulness.  Contemporary Christian Socialists like Philpe Buchez, Edward Vansittart Neale and Frederick Denison Maurice were actually more Anti-Capitalist then Marx was though sometimes they did have their own problems, I have come to believe there's a lot Christian Communists can and should learn from Marx and later Marxists, but I still disagree with Marxism on some key issues.

Marx and Engels "Opiate of the masses" quote is misunderstood, at that time no one thought of Opium mainly as a harmful addictive drug but rather it was still most well known for it's medicinal use.  Neither meaning of "Opiate of the masses" fits how New Atheists view Religion however, they see it as Crack.

Honestly I'm growing skeptical of Marx and Engels even being as Atheist as they seemed. After all Liebknecht family tradition says they were Karl Liebknecht's God Parents at his Baptism at the St. Thomas Lutheran Church.

Christian Capitalists exist because since we became the Mainstream Religion of The West we've made it possible to force anything to be compatible.  But when it comes to Socio-Economic Systems it's always been clear Capitalism is the most difficult to make fit given everything The New Testament says, the truest Reactionary Christians inevitably give away that they really want to go back to Feudalism where the ruling class had some incentive to at least pretend they cared about those beneath them, Noblesse oblige.

There are degrees to how much various kinds of Christians in the modern era have embraced Capitalism.  Megachurches and the Prosperity Gospel are Capitalist Christianity at it's worst, to me they are the modern Laodicea.  But I find it interesting how many Christians on YouTube seeking to preach agaisnt them are unwilling to straight up say or admit that Capitalism is the root of the Problem, like a Secular Centrist they don't want to admit that you can't separate that extravagant Greed from our Socio-Economic Mode of Production, everything about how the world works encourages it, they are people eager to condemn the most egregious symptoms but unwilling to address the root cause of the Disease.

Then maybe you'll have some willing to go a bit further then that.  They might say "Christians shouldn't be Capitalists but the world is certainly less evil under Capitalism then it is when it's COMMUNIST".  Or maybe they'll say "yes Capitalism is bad but that doesn't mean we should support SOCIALISM".  The problem is opposing Capitalism without supporting Socialism leads to Fascism, Nazism or Neo-Feudalism.  You need to also promote the good alternative.

And there is also the way that these people preaching agaisnt Laodiceanism will focus on it's Aesthetics just as much if not more then the Substance of what's wrong with them and wind up tying their Social Conservativism into it, including the Sexual Morality that comes from Plato not The Bible.

The branding of Communism as Godless and Capitalism as Godly was the result of Cold War Propaganda. Communism was inherently Christian for 100% of it's history until The French Revolution when some Communists started borrowing from the Atheism of the Liberals they were fighting alongside against the Monarchy and Feudalism.  Capitalism is what wouldn't exist without the Secularism of the Enlightenment, and now thanks to the Climate Crisis the entire world is paying the price for the Godlessness we embraced.

The YouTube Channel Praxis & Theodicy has a series on the Sin of Usury and how Capitalism as a system is dependent on Usury.

Update August 2023: I rewatched a bunch of the Anime Tanya The Evil recently and that show is kind of aware of what I'm arguing here, the main character absolutely connects their Atheism to their "Free Market Principals".

You should also check out the sister post to this The Reformation and The Resurgence of Democracy.

Thursday, August 20, 2020

The New Testament is Collectivist not Individualist

First of all to properly understand what I mean by Individualism and Collectivism in this post I suggest you watch this Peter Coffin video Individualism V. Individuality, it's only half an hour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijYEYzAQu0

In the modern world Indivdualism is associated with certain ideologies that in America at least are generally classified as Conservative.  Now a lot of these people are Conservative Atheists, Ayn Rand was an Atheist, she knew her brand of Individualism was utterly incompatible with proper Christian values.  But some of these Conservatives are Christians like Jordan Peterson who's technically Canadian but the thing about Canada is if your a Conservative in Canada you probably obsess over America in reaction to how much Canadian Liberalism is founded on hating America.

However a more obscure figure in the modern YouTube Right is a channel called TIK who have made some interesting videos on Hitler and Mussolini being one of the few YouTubers interested in acknowledging their differences, both are bad but they had differences that make Hitler worse, however being better then Hitler is not a grand endorsement.  In one video of his I watched he talks about the history of states and power systems from his POV and then says Jesus introduced the concept of the Individual.  So I assume that means to him the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament is that the Old Testament is Collectivist since it's about Israel and the New Testament's innovation was that now God made Covenants with Individuals not a Collective.

This view of the New Testament doesn't hold up.  Anything you can make sound Individualist about the New Testament was already there in The Torah, the punishments already punished individuals for example.  The actual innovation of the New Testament is that it's expanding the Collective, or rather returning God's focus to all of Adamkind.

The TNAK starts out about all of Humanity, the first 10 and a half chapters of Genesis. And on occasion YHWH reminded Israel that he still cares about the rest of the world like in Ezekiel 16 (the parts about Sodom) and Daniel 2-7.

In Matthew Jesus talks about gentiles entering the Kingdom before some of the Children of the Kingdom, that's not an expression of Individualism but of outsiders being let into the Collective.  

The Sheeps and Goats Judgment in Matthew 25 is defined as being of "Nations" not Individuals.

Paul in Romans 5 talks about all being made Sinners because of one Man's Sin, but then all being made righteous because of one Man's righteousness, similar to how he discuses Death and Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15.  Then in Romans 11 he says the fullness of the "Nations" will be grafted into Israel and then ALL Israel shall be Saved.  And that God consigned ALL to disobedience so that He might have Mercy on ALL.

Elsewhere The New Testament talks about The Church being the Bride of Christ and Body of Christ and Temple of God.  Inherently Collectivist symbolism.  Even when Paul brings our Individual being Individual Temples of the Holy Ghost in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 and 6:18-20 it's tied into that grander doctrine and clearly arguing agaisnt Lockean Self Ownership (or Body Ownership as some modern libertarian prefer to rephrase it) our Bodies are ultimately owned by God but also collectively shared with the rest of the Community of Believers.

It was the advent of Calvinism V. Armianism that laid the foundation of Individualizing The Gospel, in both those systems Salvation is a covenant with an Individual they only disagree on who to give the agency in that Covenant.  ColdCrashPictures calls Objectivism "Prosperity Gospel for Atheists" an analogy that immediately reminded me of my own calling Existentialism is Atheistic Arminianism.

But not all Collectivist Ideologies are good, Fascism is very Collectivist as is Nationalism.  That's why I stress how The Gospel is an Inclusivist Collectivism.

It was Gerrard Winstanley who introduced Universal Salvation to the Modern-English speaking world, and he was also a Communist.  What untied the true Gospel and Communism so naturally is that both are founded on the true Collectivist perspective of The New Testament.

Update: Here is another good Peter Hiett Sermon.

Sunday, March 8, 2020

The Morning Star of The Revolution

John Wycliffe is often called "The Morning Star of The Reformation" because of how much of what he taught was similar to what would become Protestant Doctrine (though the actual core of Protestantism arguably wasn't quite there yet).

John Ball is someone who was condemned as a Heretic by the Organized Church in 1366, over a decade before Wycliffe.  His teachings (the ones we know about at least) do not seem interested in traditional Protestant concerns.  Instead he anticipates the Taborites, Petr Chelčický, Thomas Muntzer and other Anabaptists, and then Gerrard Winstanley and the Diggers of the English Revolution.

John Ball's preaching was a major inspiration for the Peasants' Revolt of 1381.  Here are the most important Quotes.
  • My good friends, things cannot go on well in England, nor ever will until everything shall be in common, when there shall be neither vassal nor lord, and all distinctions levelled; when the lords shall be no more masters than ourselves. How ill they have used us!… They have wines, spices and fine bread, when we have only rye and the refuse of fine straw; and if we drink, it must be water. They have handsome seats and manors, when we must brave the wind and rain in our labours in the field; but it is from our labour they have the wherewith to support their pomp.… Let us go to the king, who is young, and remonstrate with him on our servitude, telling him we must have it otherwise, or that we shall find a remedy for it ourselves.
    • Typical sermon, described in the Chronicles of England, France, Spain, and other places adjoining by Jean Froissart
  • When Adam delved, and Eve span, who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who should be bond, and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, appointed to us by God, in which ye may (if ye will) cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty.
    • Sermon at Blackheath (12 June 1381), quoted in Annals, or a General Chronicle of England
So indeed I think John Ball can perhaps be called the Morning Star of the Revolution.

The first confirmed documented references to the figure of Robin Hood are from the 1370s, during this same era of social upheaval.  It's always speculated he could have been an Oral Folk Hero for ages before then, but given this cultural context it would make sense to me if the concept was in fact born then.  One detail of Robin Hood often ignored in modern depictions is his Anti-Clericalism, while still a very Pius Christian.

Occasionally a Conservative or Libertarian will try to say that "Robin Hood didn't steal form the rich and give to the poor, he stole from the King and gave the money back to the Tax Payers".  This of course is a very inappropriate application of modern ways of looking at things to Medieval Feudalism.  Not the only time they do this, they love to equate "King" with "State" to make Feudalism seem more similar to Socialism then Capitalism.  However the modern Conception of a Nation State is a product of the post Reformation phase of the Renaissance.  The Kings of Medieval Europe simply were the highest level of Feudal Nobility, they were wealthy Lander Owners, the Kingdom was the Domain of the King, like the Pharaoh's of Egypt all land was basically his personal property.

So in fact the concept of Robin Hood fits in well with what John Ball was preaching.  Whether the figure is actually older or not I think this era's climate definitely played a role in the story's popularization.

Tuesday, October 29, 2019

Why do we ignore Gerrard Winstanley when talking about the lineage of people who've taught Universal Salvation?

At least those talking about it in Modern America.  I've watched a lot of stuff from the recent conference held at the Denver Sanctuary, and I've read Robin Parry and David Bentley Hart's responses to "The Devil's Redemption".  And when people talk about the history of Universal Salvation proponents they'll talk about Gregory of Nysaa who should perhaps always be the first we mention, they'll talk about Origen in-spite how problematic he is, they'll talk about George MacDonald who's main claim to fame was as a writer of fiction.  But never Gerrard Winstanley?

I can't help but suspect that it's because so many of them come out of American Evangelicalism and are thus still a little tied to American Political Conservatism.  So the fact that the person who introduced this Gospel into the English Speaking world was also one of the founding fathers of Communism isn't something they want to emphasize.

But it's a natural connection to make in my view, so many of the points from Jesus' parables about how God isn't a respecter of Persons or of Meritocracy which definitely imply Universal Salvation when applied Metaphysically, also utterly condemn the foundational logic of Capitalism when applied to this life.  And I feel both those applications are important to what Jesus wanted us to take from them.

When Peter Hiett is preaching on Revelation and explaining what "Pornea" that Book is really condemning, it's like he's coming so close to arguing that the Whore of Babylon is Capitalism, but can't quiet go all the way.

Yet the failure to connect these two things also happens on the other end, "Liberation Theology" seems to have become a Sadducean tradition, so they aren't bringing up Gerrard Winstanley either.

Update: In a Facebook group I was provided these links.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=eebo;idno=A66686.0001.001

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/winstanley/1652/law-freedom/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR1uKpsJgwVUx4X_QePIUn1pgVfU4A5etY3442A8agt4NDSm_dMtc9uOnZs

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A66685.0001.001?view=toc&fbclid=IwAR2sBqz1nB3kXAYL85fMQ0lFUgmzc8RWI3z-WfHPjWWV8wC5LQlHCnmanno

http://www.diggers.org/diggers-ENGLISH-1649/NEW-LAW-OF-RIGHTEOUSNESS-1648-Winstanley.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2mb_Z_awI2FP9M3UEkqdRj5xKRqXRESlIMUHziASp5F2WOb26Z6iHtx24

Friday, August 30, 2019

Christian Communism

One common objection to my modern political application of the Early Church's Communism in Acts 2-4 is to say that's merely describing Voluntary Communism and would not imply support for State Enforced Communism or of Abolishing the State in the name of Communism.

If you're also teaching that Christians shouldn't get involved in secular politics at all, that we should be separatists like many of the old Anabaptists, then you can make that argument while remaining intellectually consistent.  But if you're a Dominionist, or an Amillennial/Post-Millennial teaching that the Church is supposed to be ruling the world right now, or that America was founded to be a Christian Nation and should be governed by Christian Values. you can't then ignore the clear evidence that Communism is a Christian Value.

Another objection is to claim this was peculiar to just the Jerusalem Church and we should actually view the Jerusalem Church as a failure.  This is very silly on many levels, there is no Biblical Evidence that other Churches didn't follow the example of the Jerusalem on this.  Roman A. Montero in his book All Things in Common: The Economic Practices of The Early Christians demonstrated from the the historical records that the Early Church continued this practice all through the Pre-Constantine era, it wasn't just the first generation.

The Protestant Reformation did not begin with Martin Luther, many came before him.

The problem with beginning it with Luther is that starting then makes it a very Top-Down Reformation, not just in England, Luther befriended many Princes and Dukes of northern/eastern Germany, and the movement also won over William of Orange and Christina III of Denmark.  Meanwhile in Switzerland Calvin took over Geneva and Zwignly took over Zurich, and the French Hugenots were lead by the Bourbons and the house of Navarre.  What separated Luther from his predecessors was he had the shrewd Political acumen to make his message appealing to the Nobility, and that's why modern Capitalism was largely born out of this Top-Down Reformation.

Luther's Predecessors on the other hand were all Socialist to some degree, all at least teaching that the hoarding of Wealth was incompatible with a Christian Life.  From the Waldensians to the Lollards (like John Ball) to the Hussite movement where Petr Chelčický and the Taborites both taught Communism in different forms.

After Luther came more Communist Protestants like Thomas Muntzer, but Luther was firmly against them, he was in the pocket of the Rich.  And during the English Revolution came Gerrard Winstanly and the Diggers.

It wasn't till the 1700s that Atheists and Deists started forming a Secular version of Communism.

Monday, May 8, 2017

KJV Only Universal Salvation!!!

I've already done a post on the Words Translated Eternal.  But that is obviously not going to matter to the most absolute KJV onlyists.  And this remains the top reason that KJV onlyists are among the most difficult to convince of a Universalsit argument.

This post isn't just for KJV only people however, but anyone who refuses to accept the specific Translation Error arguments that Universal Salvation proponents make.  These issues all have their roots in the Vulgate and were inherited by Luther's German Bible and all early English Bibles, and probably also French Bibles.  So I can understand refusing to accept that the True Gospel was inherently incompatible with the only Bibles the Western Church had for well over a Thousand years.

The KJV says "Endless" only twice, in neither does it refer to judgment or punishment or torment. 1 Timothy 1:4 is about genealogies and Hebrews 7:16 is about Endless Life.  And it is only things like Jesus' Kingdom that are described as being "without end".

It is still in the KJV that "Hell" is cast into the Lake of Fire and yet elsewhere the Lake of Fire seems to be what is called "Hell".   There is more then one Bethlehem in he KJV, and more then one Kadesh.  So likewise there can be more then one place called "Hell".

What we've overlooked is that there are different ways to define "Eternal" and Everlasting which is a synonym for Eternal in the KJV.  I've seen many non Universalist Christians (like Chuck Missler) define "Eternity" as being not unlimited or endless time but as being outside of time.  And so remembering how I showed back before I was a Unviersalsit that the fire of the Lake of Fire comes from God.  Perhaps there is room to define the Fire of Gehenna and the coming Judgment as Eternal because it comes from Eternity, and not as an indication of how long it lasts.

Which can again be backed up by how the KJV translates Jude 7.
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
That Fire is not still raging in the Dead Sea area today.  And again Ezekiel 16 assures us that Sodom will be restored.  And Jude 6 uses Everlasting of the angels' chains while also telling us that imprisonment will have an end.

If it's the Fire being described as Eternal or Everlasting, that's because the Fire is from God in Revelation 14, God is a Consuming Fire.  But Malachi 3 explains the fire is to purify and purge, same as 1 Corinthians 3.

And in some verses maybe the key to the Universal Salvation interpretation isn't even how Aionion is translated but how to understand other words in those passages.  Take the KJV of Matthew 25:46.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
This verse doesn't even mention fire or Gehenna it just says the Punishment (for other verses remember Damnation meant judgment or punishment in 1611) is everlasting.  Well in the Ancient world a common Punishment was Exile or Banishment.  Which is consistent with my argument that "Outer Darkness" means outside New Jerusalem.  Now the fire is mentioned earlier in verse 41, but again sometimes exile or banishment was in addition to a more brief physical chastisement.

Other options for the Punishment or Judgment could be a loss of Citizenship or inheritance, or maybe losing a reward you'd previously earned.  Whatever it is it needs to be understood in the context of the KJV telling us in Habakkuk 1:12 that God's Judgment is for Correction, and Psalm 30 that his anger is for but a moment.

Even in the KJV no Torment or Torture is ever directly described as Eternal or Everlasting.

And the only place where "for ever and ever" is used in connection to the judgment of normal humans is Revelation 14:11 where it says the Smoke goes up forever, terminology also used of the Judgment on Babylon in Revelation 19:3 drawing on Isaiah 34:10 showing it can be used of a temporal judgment.   It is in Revelation 20:10 only used directly of the Devil's sentence to the Lake of Fire, though The Beast and False Prophet being there is mentioned.

And a lot of popular Universalist Proof texts I absolutely default to quoting in their KJV version, from Romans 5&11 to the things Jesus said. And as such my other posts on this blog tend to use the KJV when I quote them, or I had the KJV in mind if I only referenced them without directly quoting.  In fact with 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 the KJV version is the most explicitly Universalist version, other translations of those verses try to allow some wiggle room, but the KJV says God "Will have All Men to be Saved" and is "not willing that any should perish" no ifs ands or buts about it.

Luke 2:14 is also very Universalsit in the KJV in a way that's undermined by how others say it should be translated.

KJV onliers who oppose Universal Salvation arguably have a little hypocrisy on this issue.  Because most KJV onliers, especially if they're also Baptists, teach that we're not under The Law anymore, that it was done away with because it was Fulfilled by Jesus.   But the KJV of the Pentateuch and other parts of the Hebrew Bible tend to say The Law and the Aaronic Priesthood and the Feasts and the Sabbath will be "forever" or "perpetual".  The Hebrew uses Olam, the Hebrew equivalent of Aion which means Age, and so many of us point that out, but the KJV onliers can't do that.  But the KJV in the New Testament has Jesus say that the Law and the Prophets were until John, and Paul says that we're now in the age or dispensation of Grace not the Law, and that the Law was a curse and imperfect.

Maybe God's Judgment/Punishment/Damnation(Which meant Judgment in 1611) on Sinners is described as seemingly forever for the same reason The Law was?  A Judge can issue a Life sentence that is latter commuted, but that doesn't make it wrong to say the sentence was for life.

Or if you argue all those Torah Laws are still Forever because they are Fulfilled in Jesus, then the entire point of the Penal Substitutionary view of Atonement is that all the ordained Punishment for All Sin is fulfilled in full in what Jesus suffered on The Cross.

And I find it interesting in this context that the post Reformation revival of Unviersalsit thinking largley started in the English Speaking world, after the KJV was published.  With men like Gerrard Winstanley.  Many claim the Geneva Bible was still popular during this era, but being as that was a Calvinist production I highly doubt it translated Aionion/Aionos or the Hell verses differently then the KJV.

[Update December 2024: I've defended form a Universalist perspective the use of the word Lake.]

So, I think a Universalist interpretation of even specifically the KJV is perfectly viable.

Everything below this point is really not the main topic of this post and is really a giant Post Script.