Limited Atonement vs Arminian Atonement, who is the Most Illogical.

When I cite 1 Timothy 4:10 as evidence of Universal Salvation "we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe". the response I get is something like "Jesus is the Savior of all because He Died for All but that doesn't mean everyone will be saved".

They are arguing that Jesus is the Savior of people who are not Saved, and think I'm the one using twisted tortured logic.  I don't believe failure is possible for Jesus, He is your Savior, therefore you will be Saved.

So why then are believers "especially" saved if no one suffers endless torment or annihilation?  First and foremost because we're aware of our Salvation, we are currently in Light and they are in Darkness, which is what it means to be "lost".  Now I could also elaborate about the issues of Rewards and Citizenship in New Jerusalem, but I actually think believers can lose those things if we fall away or screw up too badly.

John Calvin himself never addressed the issue of Limited Atonement, he went further then Martin Luthor in developing Augustin's Predestination heresy by saying God does choose not to save some people, but Limited Atonement was developed later, chiefly at the Synod of Dort in 1618.

Wikipedia says there were two things both sides of the Arminian v Calvinism debate agree one.

"It is particularly associated with the Reformed tradition and is one of the five points of Calvinism. The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world,^[1] it was the intention of God the Father that the atonement of Christ's death would work itself out in the elect only, thereby leading them without fail to salvation."-"Both sides of the controversy agreed that this efficacy was limited to the elect."

I think many disputes in Mainstream Christianity are resolved by realizing both sides actually agree on something that is wrong, and that error thus creates apparent contradictions in Scripture where there are none.  In this case what both sides agree on are logically inconsistent with each other, at least they are if God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient.

As an analogy for what both Arminians and Calvinists agree on, let's say I'm someone living in the Pokemon world.  Some shop is selling all 802 Pokemon, I paid enough money to buy all of them, but by the time I get home I only have 153.  The Calvinist would say those were always the only ones I wanted, I just over paid for them to show off that I could.  An Arminian would say the others ran away because they didn't like me.  One option makes me very wasteful, the other makes me a very bad trainer.

Calvinists take the route they feel respects God's Sovereignty, while Arminians tried to take the route that respects God's Love and Mercy.

Calvinists have to agree that Jesus Atonement was sufficient to Save everyone to get around the verses that contradict Limited Atonement.

Mostly I think of Calvinists as being the most wrong sect of Christianity.  But there are two things on which Calvinists are correct. 1. God is Sovereign, He will get what He Wants.  2. It is Illogical to say Jesus died for Everyone and yet there will still be some who aren't Saved.

The problem in what they agree on is that the word "Elect" (Chosen) is used in many senses.  Some verses are about those who currently Believe in their Mortal Life.  But Paul in Romans 11:22 is clear that unbelieving Jews are still Elect, and Jesus included Judas when He said that He had Chosen the 12, and yet Judas was a Devil.  Ultimately all Humans were Chosen by God to be made in the Image and Likeness of God and have dominion over the Earth in Genesis 1 and Psalm 8.

Both verses that refer to few being chosen, Matthew 20:16 and 22:14, also say many are called.  The second occurrence I believe is meant to help explain the random occurrence earlier, and on that occasion it ends the parable of the Wedding Feast, where the Many Called is indeed everyone, but only one person is Chosen and that's the one cast out into Outer Darkness.  In Isaiah 42:1 The Elect is The Servant who in chapter 53 is bruised for our iniquities.  I have argued that Gehenna could be the site of the Crucifixion.  1 Peter 2:6 also calls the Stone that is Jesus Elect.  We are Elect because we are The Body of Christ.

Many verses contradict Limited Atonement by implication, including ones mentioned in this post already, like at the start.  But there are two passages that directly render that notion impossible.

1 John 2:1-2, "propitiation" in the KJV is the Greek word for Atonement.

1 Timothy 2:4-6, which also demonstrates that God's Will is to Save everyone along with Matthew 18:14.