Showing posts with label Stoicism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Stoicism. Show all posts

Thursday, May 1, 2025

Materialism and Idealism

 One thing that unintentionally poisons the well of Internet Leftist Discourse is that both of those words (as well as their -ist forms) have more than one meaning, and yet many either only know one meaning, ignorantly conflate the meanings, or are willingly ignorant that others don’t know the other meanings.

Idealism as in the Metaphysics of Platonism and Immanuel Kant has nothing to do with what it means when someone is called an Idealist in contrast to being a Pragmatist or Cynical.  In the latter case Ideal is being used as a synonym for Value or Moral rather then a Platonic Ideal Form.

Likewise Materialist Metaphysics (or lack of metaphysics) has little to do with the “Historical Materialism” of philosophies like Marxism and nothing to do with the Madonna song Material Girl.

You can be Idealistic while still rejecting Philosophical Idealism, and you can be a Historical Materialist while while holding to Idealist Metaphysics.

Materialist Metaphysics is a key pillar of Stoicism, and the main reason I call myself somewhat of a Stoic rather than most anything popularly associated with Stoicism.  While the rejection of anything metaphysical existing is Epicureanism. 

I agree with Historical Materialism but not the more specific Dialectical Materialism which I view as a symptom of Pythagorean Dualism.  And that’s why my status as a Marxist is questionable.

So I’m definitely not a Philosophical Idealist.  How much the other Idealism applies to me is purely subjective. 

Tuesday, January 21, 2025

I dislike Extra Credits videos relevant to the Oriental Orthodox more every year

First of all the fact that in the final Episode of the Early Church Schisms series and the entire Justinian Saga they keep saying “Monophysite” in the videos proper to then in the Lies videos acknowledge the Miaphysite distinction but stills defend their "Academic" use of Monophysite really bugs me.

No one Self Identified as principally a Monophysite even the few niche Heretics who the Miaphysites would call the real Monophysites, but those people are never talked about in any of these videos, it’s all about the 5th and 6th Century Christians who became what we now know as the Oriental Orthodox Church.  They are ONLY ever talking about the Miaphysites who find the Monophysite label offensive.  

Monophysite is a term that shouldn't exist.

But I’ve grown to be annoyed even by how they initially defined the distinction between Chalcedonian and Miaphysite Christology. 

Yes I agree that ultimately the difference between both of them and Nestorianism is semantical, all three view Jesus as Fully Divine and Fully Human and the nuanced issues of how the two natures interact I can’t really as a Low Church Protestant find a definitive Sola Scriptura answer to, it’s a Mystery that maybe God didn’t want us overthinking this much.  Unfortunately I'm a Nerdy overthinker by nature.

Years ago I had a thing for mildly preferring the Nestorian Formula, but the more I’ve learned about how Divine Impassibility is uniquely vital to their Logic the more I’ve drifted away from that.  But let’s return to the topic at hand.

Extra Credits chooses to define Chalcedonian Christology as “Two natures that are Mixed” and Miaphysite Christology as “One Nature that is both Divine and Human”.  This is mistaken however, there is nothing about Mixing or Mixture in the Chalcedonian Definition.

Rather the clause in the Chalcedonian Definition that the Oriental Orthodox object to “in Two Natures” because they prefer “out of Two Natures”.

When I define how I personally view the Incarnation without trying to fit into one of the boxes of Late Antiquity Greeks arguing over nuanced distinctions of Hellenic Verbiage, I like to say it like this.

In The Incarnation Christ Unified both the Divine and Human Natures, and that Unification is not ultimately just in Christ but at the future Consumption of all things, when all the Dead are Bodily Raised and All Things are Made New the separation between Divine and Human will fade away.  That of course also needs to be understood in the Context of my Materialist (maybe a little Stoic) understanding of Divinity in contrast to the Platonism more popular in modern Mainstream Christianity.

One can see how at face value the way Extra Credits had defined them made Chalcedonianism seem more compatible with my perspective, while the real distinction makes the Miaphysite model seem more compatible.  However I also suspect many Christians in both camps would say my way of looking at it can fit theirs.

I’ve been wanting to write this post for a while now but keep putting it off because it feels like every time I look into the “In Two natures” vs “Out of Two natures” distinction I change my mind on which one I prefer.  Sometimes I get a little too paranoid that the “Out of Two Natures” phrasing could be taken out of context to imply Jesus is a New Third Nature neither Human or Divine.

Honestly I feel like I’m sometimes biased against the Oriental Orthodox because of my personal distaste for Cyril of Alexandria.  Yes the Chalcedonians also consider him a Saint but the Miaphysites often seem like they are basing their entire self identity on being the “True Cyrillians”.  But it’s important to remember that people are complicated, Cyril could be right on Christology and a Bad Tyrannical Leader at the same time.  

The Branch of Oriental Orthodoxy most directly connected to Cyril, the Copts, are now a religious Minority in Egypt.  They have more in common with those Cyril persecuted than Cyril however much they may be in denial of Cyril’s villainy. 

Regardless of which Christology I prefer, I'm not eligible to join any Denomination that adheres to the Second Ecumenical Council because of my Congregationalist views on Church Governance and opposition to Infant Baptism.

Monday, May 27, 2024

Omnipotence, what does it mean and is it Biblical?

First I recommend watching InspiringPhilosphy’s video on Omnipotence which is a good start, the gist is that Omnipotence doesn’t mean “nothing God can’t do” but only that no one is more powerful than God..

But I want to dig deeper by asking if the word itself is something we should maybe discard in preference to a better representations of the Biblical Idea?

In the King James Bible the word Omnipotent occurs only once in Revelation 19:6 where it is used to translate the Greek word Pantokrator which everywhere else it appears gets translated Almighty.

Pantokrator does indeed come from combining a Greek word that means “all” with a Greek word sometimes translated “Power”.  But Kratos is also the root of the last part of words like Demokratia/Democracy.  It means Power in the sense of Ruling Authority not in the sense of your Power Level in a Video Game.  An absolute Dictator still can’t defy the laws of physics in his domain.

The Theology of the Ancient Stoics is often defined as not believing in Omnipotence as we’d define it today but some Stoics did use Pantokrator.  The Bible definitely does teach Omniscience (God knows the End from the Beginning) and Omnipresence which are also doctrines it has in common with Stoic Theology in contrast to Platonism.

Universal Salvation alone does not solve the Problem of Evil, many people still have a problem with the need for Salvation in the first place if God is both All Good and All Powerful.

There are two usual methods of trying to reconcile the existence of Evil with Omnipotence.

First would be that it’s about respecting Human Free Will.  But as I’ve already discussed on this Blog the idea that Humans ever truly Choose Evil is one I Biblically reject.

Second is arguing that it's about Creation still being a work in progress, the Evil and Suffering in the world now is the beating the clay into shape or some such allegory.  I have some sympathy for this approach since I think it's partly true even without the doctrine of Omnipotence, much less the popular understanding of it.  But taken on its own, it starts to remind me of how some Anime Villains justify themselves, like Izaya in Durarara which I recently watched.

But you may ask “how can we have Faith in Universal Salvation without Omnipotence?”.  

My Faith is first and foremost in the Character of God, I don’t believe God makes any Promise there’s any chance He could fail to keep, and I firmly believe He’s promised to Save Everyone.

The actual meaning of Pantoktrator combined with Omniscience and Omnipresence gives God more than enough tools to accomplish Universal Salvation.

Sunday, May 5, 2024

Logos Theology is Semitic in Origin

Neither Heraclitus, Plato or Aristotle uses the word Logos for any aspect of the Divine.  

Stoicism was the first school of Greek Philosophy to use the word Logos for an aspect of the Divine. 

The Stoic School was founded by Zeno of Citium who was a Phoenician, Chrysippus was also a Phoenician and some other notable early Stoics may have been as well. Phoenician was a term the Greeks used for all the native residents of the Mediterranean coastal regions of Lebanon and north western Israel, both Canaanites and Israelites with the Tribes of Asher and Dan both having particular ties to that region.

The first Platonist to use the word Logos in a Similar way was Philo of Alexandria who was Jewish. Aristobulus was an earlier Hellenistic Era Greek Speaking Jewish Philosopher but we don’t have his writings so can’t know if he used the word Logos or not.

The Biblical Hebrew Basis for Logos Theology arguably begins with God Creating the World by Speaking in Genesis 1.  But mostly I think Greek speaking Jews like Philo and the Early Christians (who I believe were originally more Stoic then Platonist) mainly used Logos as a Greek translation of the Hebrew word Dabar, Strong’s Number 1697-1698.  Dabar first appears in Genesis 15 where the Dabar of God seems to be a very tangible manifestation of God.  We likewise see throughout The Prophets “The Word of YHWH came unto" a Prophet speaking a Prophecy that the Prophet then writes down.  Psalm 33 is also believed to be an important influence on the Fourth Gospel’s use of the word.

In Rabbinic Literature the Aramaic word Memra becomes a synonym for this same concept.

So no The Logos is not an example of Greek Philosophy or Mythology influencing the Judeo-Christian Tradition, it’s the other way around.

The World Soul in The Bible

In terms of my agenda on this Blog of arguing for a basic compatibility between the Theology and Metaphysics of Stoicism and The Bible, The World Soul is probably the biggest obstacle, at first glance no one sees anything like that in The Bible.

Well I’m going to start actually with 1st John Chapter 5.  Even if you agree with Bible Sceptics that verse 7 wasn’t originally there, what’s said in verses 6 and 8 reads like the Spirit/Pneuma in The Earth is a Stoic World Soul, especially when we remember that the Stoic meaning of Pneuma was that word’s standard default meaning in the 1st and early 2nd Centuries, it wasn’t until Platonist Christianity starts to emerge in the mid 2nd Century that we start seeing the non Material definition of Pneuma develop.

But I do believe verse 7 was always there, and what it says being placed in the middle of this adds a heavy implication that the Pneuma in The Earth and the Holy Pneuma may be the same Pneuma.

Then we add Ecclesiastes 12:7 saying The Spirit returns to God as the Dust returns to the Earth resembles the Stoic view of what happens at physical death.  (But remember what Christianity adds that Pagan Gentile Stoicism did not have was The Resurrection, which in my view makes this verse of Ecclesiastes not wrong but simply not the end.)  Because I’ve already argued that The God of The Bible is Immanent within the Universe not outside of it like in Platonism.

Deuteronomy 32:22 tells us that God’s Fire burns in the Depths of The Earth, that’s what Sheol/Hades/Hell actually means in The Bible, the Heart of The Earth.

Combined with what I’ve already talked about on this Blog regarding the Divine Presence being like Fire and how that ties into the Stoic connection between Pneuma and Fire.  And a World Soul like concept is hinted at in The Bible.

Tuesday, April 2, 2024

The Very Name of God contradicts Divine Immutability

I have a prior post on this blog covering my dislike of Divine Immutability.  But now I have realized an even stronger argument against it.

At the burning bush God famously responds to Moses asking for His Name with “’ehye ’ăšer ’ehye” which the KJV and other well known translations render as “I Am that I Am”.  However few scholars think that’s actually the best translation of the phrase.

Popular alternatives include.

“I will become what I will becoming”
“I am what I will be”
“I am what I am becoming”
“I will become what I choose to become”
“I am who I shall be”
“I shall be who I shall be”

I am about to use Wikipedia as a source, given recent Internet controversies I feel I need to be upfront about that fact.  Wikipedia can be crap, but in this case it’s accurately reflecting Hebrew Scholarship in a way that’s easy to understand.
Biblical Hebrew did not distinguish between grammatical tenses. It instead had an aspectual system in which the perfect denoted any actions that have been completed, and imperfect denoted any actions that are not yet completed.[5][6][7] Additionally, if a verb form was prefixed by וַ־ (wa-), its aspect was inverted; a verb conjugated in the imperfect and prefixed by וַ־‎ would read as the perfect, while a verb conjugated in the perfect and prefixed by וַ־‎ would read as the imperfect. The word אֶהְיֶה‎ (ehyeh) is the first-person singular imperfect form of hayah, 'to be', which in Modern Hebrew indicates the future tense 'I will be'; however, it lacks the prefix וַ־‎ which would necessitate this reading in Biblical Hebrew. It therefore may be translated as 'I am', but also as a modal form such as 'I may be', 'I would be', 'I could be', etc. Accordingly, the whole phrase can be rendered in English not only as 'I am that I am' but also as 'I will be what I will be' or 'I will be who I will be', or 'I shall prove to be whatsoever I shall prove to be' or even 'I will be because I will be'. Other renderings include: Leeser, 'I Will Be that I Will Be'; Rotherham, 'I Will Become whatsoever I please'.
In other words it is perfectly valid to see the fundamental meaning of this phrase as God defining Himself as still a Work in Progress.

Saturday, March 2, 2024

Agape and Eros and other words for Love

I have a prior post on this Blog deconstructing the notion that the various Greek words for Love are mutually exclusive types of Love, and I've touched on the subject in some others.  I stand by essentially everything I said there but I've also refined my understanding a bit.

Eros is absent from The New Testament, that fact is the main cause of this commotion, the idea that Eros is the only Greek word for Love that is inherently Sexual, is the invention of Augustinian Puritanical Christians who want to separate Sex from all the positive Love talk in The New Testament, especially when it says God IS Love and that Jesus commanded us to Love one another or when it mentions Love Feasts as a Sacrament.  Because if they did they might have to accept that The Church was meant to be a giant Polycule.

Problem is the Septuagint Greek Translation of The Song of Songs aka The Song of Solomon also only uses Agape and never Eros, the most obviously "Erotic" book uses Agape not Eros.  Elsewhere the Septuagint uses Agape and Eros interchangeably to translate the Hebrew Ahav.  You also can't define Agape as the pure kind of Love that can't be corrupted by Sin when the Septuagint also uses a form of Agape when it says Amnon "loved" Tamar when he raped her in 2 Samuel 13:1.

People who have bought into this concept can't even agree on how to define Agape, in ContraPoints' new excellent video on Twilight (which I'll mention again later) Agape is defined as "Spiritual Love", the King James Bible in many passages translates it as "Charity".  Now the concept of Charity is very Biblical but every appearance of that word in the KJV is a mistranslation of Agape.

The issue with Agape is the overwhelming vast majority of Ancient usage of the word is by Christians and Greek Speaking Jews.  It does exist in Greek independent of that influence, a form of it does appear in Homer.  But using it as a standard part of every day vocabulary as much or more then Philia and Eros seems to have been the exclusive practice of Abrahamic Monotheists.

There is usually said to be Five Greek words for Love, but only three concern me here.  Eros, Philia and Agape.  There are distinctions between them that would cause a careful writer to prefer one over the other in a given context, but those differences are more connotative then definitional.

Because I'm a Weeb I'm once again going to use some Japanese words to help clarify how I feel these three Greek words should be thought of.

Agape = Ai

Eros = Koi

Philia = Suki

In the 24th episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion the character Kowaru uses the word Suki to describe how he feels about Shinji.  In the first ever officially licensed English Localization of NGE which was the ADV Films VHS Subtitled release Suki was translated as Like "I like you".  Later ADV releases however would upgrade this to "I love you".  And so when the Netflix versions of Eva went up a few years ago... well a lot of things were disliked for good reasons but the most intense discourse was about it translating Suki as Like, with most not even knowing that was what ADV did the first time.  The idea that this decision inherently straight washed the scene is silly because what makes Kowaru and Shinji's relationship very obviously Gay are the Vibes not any of the specific words they use.  The English word Love is not always Romantic/Sexual and English usage of Like very much can be, I know this because I'm an older Millennial with a lot of childhood memories of watching The Wonder Years.

All that context is why I identify Philia with Suki, even Philia is not inherently asexual as shown by there being a sexual goddess named Philotes, in fact it survived in how many modern clinical/psychological terms use Philia to describe a Sexual attraction.  However it is the only of the three that can be used with a complete absence of Passion.  In John 11 Philia is used twice when it is only how Jesus feels about Lazarus being described while Agape is used of Lazarus and his Sisters.  That's why when it comes to the "Beloved Disciple" verses in later chapters I view it as Mary (Magdalene and "Of Bethany" are the same Mary in my view) when Agape is used but Lazarus the one time Philia is used.

Ai is a word for Love that is clearly associated with Romantic Love and Sexual Love and Love that is neither of those.  Koi however is the most connotatively sexual of the Japanese words for Love in a way that makes it more likely to be used in the title of a Hentai.  

Eros isn't absent from the New Testament because what it does refer to is inherently sinful, it's just not the best word for what these authors are focusing on.  It has to do with the association of Eros with not just Passion but intense uncontrollable Passion. Agape absolutely does include what a modern English Speaker usually means by Romantic or Erotic Love.

In ContraPoints's Twilight video she introduces the discussion of Eros by repeating the common error that the Greek words for Love refer to different things.  However her elaboration on Eros shows that she understands it connotatively to be even more specific then just Romantic/Sexual, it's about Passion, Desire, Longing, Craving, a bunch of obscure words I've already forgotten.  The problem is when you equate that proper understanding of Eros with the notion that the other Greek Words for Love have nothing to do with Sex or Romance it causes one to have a very demeaning view of Romantic relationships that lack this unbridled Passion and thus her characterizing most Committed Long Term Relationships where the Passion has died out as not even truly being Romantic anymore.  I think it can be very Romantic to just wholesomely enjoy another person's company.

And that's my only criticism of the video, overall it's fantastic.  

Well I'm also annoyed by her reference to Stoicism, once again the average YouTube Philosopher's understanding of Stoicism is entirely filtered through Late or Roman Stoicism which had incorporated aspects of Pythagorean Sexual morality.  Zeno Stoics were the Communist Free Love Hippies of the Hellenistic World.  Zeno tried to redefine Eros in a way that made it no longer about uncontrollable Passion but still absolutely Sexual.  It is still my hypothesis that there is a connection between Zeno's Eros and New Testament Agape.

Update April 29th: I re-found this thing I read once that helps explain my interpretation of Koi and Agape.

Tuesday, October 17, 2023

I've changed my views on Bible Prophecy

 Here's my new Prophecy Blog.

I figured I should let followers of this Blog know since my views on Prophecy are occasionally mentioned here.

Update December 4th 2023: I'm also redoing here some posts that weren't really specifically about Eschatology all that much to begin with.

Saturday, September 16, 2023

I don't think Nero Persecuted Christians

Few Extra-Biblical traditions of Early Church History seem as unquestionable.  Nero's supposed Persecution of Christians is treated as the next chapter of Church History right after the narrative of Acts ends.  Hollywood movies depicting it are called Biblical Epics, and I will continue to enjoy those movies in-spite of how fictional I now view them to be, but there were also certain things I always felt they got wrong.

The thing is, the closer to Biblical History a tradition is, the more likely it is evidence in The Bible itself could work against it.  I already did a post arguing that Peter never went to Rome, which included my deconstructing the assumption that the Ascension of Isaiah was talking about Nero at all.  (And now I have this follow up post.)  I even already there questioned the assumption that Paul was Martyred in Rome, though he certainly did go there.

Here is a fact that is somewhat little known, the trail before Caesar (we know Nero was Caesar at the time because it's after Felix's time as Governor of Judea ended) Paul was awaiting when the narrative of Acts ended, is kind of recorded in Scripture elsewhere.  2 Timothy 4 verses 16-18, often considered the last of Paul's Epistles to be written.
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.  Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.  And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The implication of these verses is clearly that Paul was acquitted.

Now plenty of scholars are aware of this.  But some insist Paul returned to Rome a second time later and was killed then, by the very same Emperor who had acquitted him before.  Sometimes specifically saying 2 Timothy 1:16-17 refers to this second imprisonment, but to me the context of the letter clearly makes that the same imprisonment he records the resolution of quoted above.

Now some have interpreted the above verses as being about Paul's escapes recorded in Acts. But the way he says "out of the mouth of the Lion" makes me think he's referring to The Seat of Caesar, to the Beast that yes I do still view as being in a sense the Roman Government.  I've also seen it argued that what Paul said elsewhere in that chapter is implying he's about to die.  Well he could have been dying of old age, but I don't necessarily think that verse is implying immanent death.

The only authentic Epistle of Clement of Rome says in chapter 5 that Paul went to the "Extremity of The West" (or "limits of the west" in Bart Ehrman's translation).  Many strangely quote this passage as backing up Paul being martyred in Rome when in my view it does not, it seems on it's own without bringing our assumptions into it, to be saying the "Extremity of the West" is where Paul met his fate.

Now "extremity of the west" is an expression used in Secular Pagan Roman writings to refer to Spain, so this can be read as just confirming Paul fulfilled his stated desire to go to Spain from Romans 15:24&28.  

Maybe if Paul was martyred by a Roman Emperor it was a later one.  The second Emperor tradition says persecuted Christians was Domitian.  And sometimes people use against the Domitian persecution the same argument I'll bring up later against Neronian persecution, that Christians and Jews weren't distinguished in Roman law yet.  However that ignores that Suetonius records Jews being persecuted under Domitian, and unlike many other things Suetonius talks about this he was an eye witness to.

An overarching theme of the Book of Acts is that the Roman Governmental authorities under Claudius and Nero are the good guys during this era, Christian Persecution came from local mobs, which in Judea were often riled up by the Sadducees, but were Pagans in Pagan cities.  Tradition has chosen to vilify a Caesar that Paul was confident would rule in his favor.  

Also while Nero still ruled the Christians hiding in Pella were protected by Nero's ally Agrippa II according to Remigius, Bishop of Reims (437 – 533 AD) [Thomas Aquinas (1841). Catena Aurea: Commentary on the Four Gospels; Collected out of the Works of the Fathers: St. Matthew. (J. H. Newman, Ed.) (Vol. 1, p. 799-816)].  Epiphanius of Salamis agrees with Perea also being part of where the Early Christians fled.

Under the Flavians, as well as the following emperors, it served the new Dynasty to vilify Nero for the same reason it served the Tudors and Stuarts to vilify Richard III during the time of Shakespeare.  And meanwhile during this same era and later many "Early Church Fathers" were trying to appeal to these same Roman Emperors (or their successors) and the people who supported them, often addressing their Apologies to them directly.  So at some point I think Christians like Tertullian wanted to pin the blame on Nero for the illicit legal status they had, and then Suetonius and (a redactor of )Tacitus listed persecuting Christians among the things they attributed to Nero because Christians were saying it, it was just another story going around.

Though maybe part of the desire of later Christians to see Nero as their Enemy came from how much they inherited from certain Stoics.  In the first century AD Musonius Rufus sounds like a modern American Evangelical on Sexual Morality more so then any New Testament author.  He was part of the Stoic opposition to Nero but later the only Philosopher Vespasian allowed to stay in Rome.  And Stoic criticism of Nero was continued by Epicetus.

The villainous reputation of Nero largely comes from Roman Historians of the Senatorial Class (chiefly Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio), who loved to slander the Julio-Claudians as depraved because of their semi-Plebian origins, but loved Vespasian-Titus and the "Five Good Emperors" because they came from their class and so were good to them.  Thing is the common people of the Empire were oppressed by heavy Taxes under those Senatorial Emperors.

There is plenty of evidence however that the common people were happy under Nero.  Even the Christian source John Chrysostom acknowledged that.  Plutarch in his allusions to Nero is also more favorable, as well as Lucan.  The biography of Appolonius of Tyana also records how Nero was loved by the Greeks in the Eastern Provinces.  And the Talmud has a favorable memory of Nero also.  In fact one reason many later Christians started thinking the Antichrist would be Nero resurrected somehow was because before then those who liked Nero had started believing he would come back to save them from Flavian oppression, he became Greco-Rome's King Arthur.

One purely modern detail of the traditions about Nero's persecution is the tying it into the bad reputation of Poppaea Sabina his second wife, it seems the Hollywood versions feel they need a Jezebel/Delilah figure.  Poppaea was depicted as a scheming Femme Fatale by those senatorial sources.  But Josephus who actually knew her personally paints a very different picture in his autobiography.  Josephus depicts her as practically a Proselyte and mentions among her Jewish friends an actor Nero was a fan of.

Now some have suggested Poppaea's Jewish associations are why her influence would have been against Paul.  But that would be the case only if the Jews who had her ear were Sadducees.  But based on Josephus being a Pharisee, and that I think his shipwreck was the same as Paul's, I doubt that. Plus Gentile Proselytes might have been inclined to like Paul's message even if they didn't fully become believers in Jesus and The Gospel.

Some histories are confused by how Josephus could possibly be talking about the same woman the other sources are, even if one or both is exaggerated to suit their bias.  I say just look at Anne Boleyn, to the Catholics of Tudor England she was explicitly compared to Jezebel, but Protestants sometimes paint her as a saint in for example the film Anne of the Thousand Days.

Acte was a mistress of Nero, archaeology has shown there were Christians in her household as either slaves or freedmen, leading some to speculate she herself may have been one.  Modern fictionalizations often place her in conflict with Poppaea, wanting to make her the Betty to Poppaea's Veronica.  But they were actually on the same side when trying to influence Nero, both being pro-Seneca and anti-Agrippina.  So for all we know they could have had a threesome.

Also the Gallio in Acts 18 was Seneca's brother, so that's further evidence Senaca's influence would have been against persecuting Christians or convicting Paul.

Some secular scholars have already questioned the historicity of the Neronian persecution.  But in a way they're not going as far as I am here, as they do think something happened, but distinguish it from a systemic persecution.

One of the arguments they do bring up is the lack of legal distinction between Jews and Christians before the time of Trajan. The early second century correspondence between Pliny and Trajan clearly show there was no prior policy on what to do about Christians, surely the Neronian persecution and accusation they tried to burn Rome would have been relevant to bring up here?  And the Roman persecution they did face before was a product of persecutions the Jews suffered under Domitian.  But since the evidence from the Talmud and Josephus show The Jews in Rome had it good under Nero, there is no reason to think Nero killed any Christians.

And these Secular critics have also pointed out that Tacitus account must be derivative of something he heard from Christians and not Roman legal records since he got the kind of Governor Pilate was wrong (he said Procurator when Pilate was a Prefectus).  And Suetonius was certainly willing to record things based on pure rumor.  His account of the death of Caligula and Claudius becoming emperor is clearly based on Josephus's account (he mentioned Josephus so was aware of him) but the differences are all the tabloid style scandals he spices it up with.

This effects Preterism because Nero is the only of the first century Emperors where any plausible way to make their name's Gemetria equal 666 exists, and even that is tortured since it uses Aramaic not Greek (read 666 cannot be Nero).  But also the assumption that Nero persecuted Christians is necessary to make it possible that John's exile to Patmos was under Nero, yet even the traditional view of the Neronian persecution makes it local in Rome only.  All the facts I laid out above make John's exile far more plausible under Domitian's Jewish persecution (if it was an Exile at all). 

Persecuting Christians isn't the only evil thing attributed to Nero that I think is slander.   But he is someone who became ruler of the world at a young age, and so could have cracked under the pressure a few times and certainly perfect. 

I think Poppaea probably died of a miscarriage and the claim Nero kicked her to death was probably another of Suetonius's tabloid rumors.  

I don't think Sporus was actually Castrated agaisnt their will (if at all), I suspect they were in fact what we'd today call a Trans Woman. The part about them resembling Poppea and Nero calling them by her name doesn't show up till Casisus Dio, even Suetonius doesn't report that and he certainly would have if the story was already around.

If the rumors of the Incest with Agrippina were true, he'd be the victim in that case, he was probably still a minor by modern standards when that started since he was only 17 when he became Emperor (and I think the Age of Consent should be raised to 20 at least).  However a book called Women of the Caesars (I'm not sure which book on Amazon with that title was the one I read, it came in Red) argues for a more positive portrayal of Agrippina and thus agaisnt such rumors, but it did so supporting the negative portrayal of Poppaea which I view as wrong.

So I feel there is a lot of evidence to re-evaluate how we view Nero.

I became aware of this Article thanks to Religion For Breakfast on Twitter.
https://www.academia.edu/26841558/The_Myth_of_the_Neronian_Persecution
There are differences between his view and mine, he does still think Paul was executed in Rome in the 60s, I think regardless of where Paul died he lived into the 90s and had been to Spain before then.  And arguing the term "Christian" didn't exist yet I view as wrong since I believe Acts to be true History. But it's still an interesting article.

The History for Atheists Blog has a post defending the authenticity and reliability of Tacitus accounts of the Fire and Persecution in which context he makes his reference to Jesus.
https://historyforatheists.com/2017/09/jesus-mythicism-1-the-tacitus-reference-to-jesus/
That defense of Tacitus remains the main weakness to my thesis here.  Though uncritically accepting Tacitus still doesn't change that we can't prove Paul was martyred in Rome, in fact it becomes odd that Tacitus didn't mention Peter or Paul if there were prominent leaders of this new religion killed here.

Still as much as I agree with this blog on many subjects regarding the Historicity of Jesus, I still view Tacitus as problematic.  The issue of being dependent on one very late manuscript and getting the kind of Governor Pilate was wrong I can't so easily write off.  And O'Neill's argument that people who just assumed Nero set the fire wouldn't mention Scapegoats I can't really buy either, his falsely blaming others for it would only make his tyranny look worse. I mean I get why Christian sources maybe wouldn't want to remind people they were accused of this, but the Pagan Roman sources shouldn't be leaving out such a vital detail.  And in my opinion the early Christians would not have been that afraid of it.  

Here is another Article from an Atheist Website deconstructing the arguments in defense of the Tacitus account.

The traditional dates for Paul and Peter's martyrdom also predate them ever being linked to the fire since they were AD 67.  Which interestingly is a year in which Nero wasn't even in Rome, he was touring Greece at that time.

Thersities the Historian has talked about how many Roman Persecutions are exaggerated.  Saying only the Diocletian (really Galerian's) persecution was as extreme as the Christians imagined the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century persecutions to be.  Many Emperors were labeled persecutors when really it was local persecutions that happened during their reign.  Tertullian who was a contemporary says Septimius Severus was well disposed to the Christians.

And the thing is, it's possible even the idea of Christian persecution being linked to being blamed for a fire has it's origins in the Galerian persecution because there was a fire in Nicomedia (which was Diocletian's capital in the east) that Galerius blamed on the Christians.

No account of the Neronian Persecution that can be proven to have existed before the 300s links it to the Fire of 64 AD.  Tacitus is the only one really even claimed to have existed that far back which does, and our oldest manuscript for Tacitus is Carolingian, and all younger manuscripts are known to go back to that one.

Here's a link where you can read Lactantius's Of the Manner in which The Persecutors Died

The text in the later part of chapter 2 asserts that Nero persecuted Christian, I still believe that idea emerged in the 2nd Century maybe even late first, but he doesn't tie it to the Fire or anything like a Fire.  

Later in chapter 14 and 15 he is one of our main contemporary sources on the role the Fire in Nicomedia played in the Diocletian Persecution, he was a contemporary and had been in Nicomedia.  If the idea that Nero's Persecution was tied to Christians being blamed for that Fire already existed you'd think he's mention it, the Biblical way he's trying to present all this would be well served by pointing out ways in which History was repeating itself, but he doesn't.

When discussing Persecutions that can be blamed on Roman Emperors Lacantius skips right from Domitian to Decius meaning there was no Imperial Persecution under Marcus Aurelius or Septimius Severus or Maximinus Thrax either.

Even Eusebius still knows of no connection to a Fire in Rome when discussing the Neronian Persecution in Book II chapter 25 of Church History, in fact he doesn't cite any source older then Tertullian who says he's basing it on Roman Records but that could honestly just be Suetonius, but it's also the same text where Tertullian is claiming Tiberius tried to have Jesus added to the Roman Pantheon, a claim no historian takes seriously.  And Eusebius also records the Nicomedia fire in Book VIII chapter 6.

Update October 27th 2024: I've discovered another similar incident that could have inspired the Christians being blamed for the Fire of Rome Narrative.  Josephus in Wars of The Jews Book 7 Chapter 3 Section 3 talks about events in Antioch in AD 67 which include a persecution of the city's Jews based on accusing them of plotting to burn down the city.

You'd think if something similar had happened to what was then still a sect of Judaism in Rome only 3 years earlier it'd also be something Josephus would have noted somewhere.

Since Antioch is the other City that Peter is traditionally the first Bishop of and since his martyrdom was traditionally dated to AD 67, maybe he was actually Martyred as part of this Jewish Persecution?

That being the inspiration would allow the Tacitus account to be an authentic original part of that text with him simply already hearing a muddled version of the story that confused the two fires.

AD 67 as the original traditional date for the year of Peter's Martyrdom comes from The Liber Pontificalus which places the Martyrdom of Peter in the 38th year from the Passion which at the soonest was AD 30.  

It also fits a theory some scholars have that Peter was burned alive rather then Crucified, since that's what happened to certain Jewish leaders at Antioch according to this story.

Update January 8th 2025: Here's a YouTube Video attempting to provide some Nuance to the discussion of Nero.
Update August 2025: And now he has a follow up on Sporus.  Looks like there is more evidence for them being associated with Poppea then I originally thought, but I'm still skeptical.
Update January 2026: Here's a newer post i made on Peter.

Tuesday, September 20, 2022

Free Will and Personal Moral Responsibility.

On the issue of Free Will vs Determinism I am a type of Compatibilist, I reject hopeless Fatalism but also believe there are enough mitigating factors in the world to render no one truly ultimately fully responsible for their own actions.

My perspective on this has changed some but this is no complete reversal of any prior post I've made on the subject.  This is somewhat true of me in the past but it's especially true going forward that when I seem to speaking as a pro Free Will person I'm speaking agaisnt Calvinist Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace or Augustinian Original Sin or the Reprobate Doctrine as it is taught by some Arminians.  And I've also argued against Free Will being inherently incompatible with Universal Salvation.

However when I seem to be anti Free Will I am advocating a form of Determinism not Calvinist Predestination.  Determinism is what any Atheist who says they reject Free Will is talking about, but it's not only Atheists, if you're any type of Materialist then you're also some type of Determinist.

Determinism has unfortunately become a contentious topic among many people it shouldn't be.  Much of what I'm arguing in this post is controversial not just among my fellow Christians regardless of their politics but also among fellow Leftist regardless of their religious affiliation.

For example some Leftists think because we reject Scientific Racism and Eugenics then we should also reject any conception of "Biological Determinism" or inheritable traits.  The specific claims of those pseudo sciences are both factually wrong and morally repugnant.  But it's still true that we are the way we are in part because of how are brains are wired.  And acknowledgment of those factors should be a cause for sympathy and understanding not a justification for hate and discrimination.

Here's one good YouTube video on Determinism, but it is by someone not as Left Wing as I am and probably not as Compatibilist either.

And all of that is just one aspect of Determinism, we Leftists also care about Historical Materialism, Material Conditions and Systemic Oppression and so on.  

As a Christian Compatibilist it is my position that when people do good they are by the Grace of God acting in their own Free Will.  But when they do Evil it is them falling victim to their conditions in some way.  That is equally as true of both the morally best people who've ever lived as it is of the morally worst.

To many in the Ancient World including Socrates and I firmly believe every author of the New Testament, it was oxymoronic to even consider debating if a evil act someone committed was or wasn't committed by their own free will because they believed Humans are innately Good and so any Evil deed one commits is by definition a deviation of their true nature and not something they could have possibly done of their own free will.  

To Socrates it seems it is chiefly Ignorance that is to Blame, and that can be supported by what Jesus said on The Cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".  But also when Jesus called Matthew and some objected He said that Sinners are sick people who need a doctor not criminals who need punishment, so that implies other factors as well.  

Mark 7:11 and John 8:31-36 talk about Jesus making us Free, as does Romans 8 verses 2 and 32 and Galatians 5.  Grace is spoken of as a Free Gift by Paul because we don't have to pay anything for it, it is given to everyone, permission is not asked.  The only NT verses that seem to truly speak of metaphysical Free Will are in Revelation 21-22 in the New Heaven and New Earth.

In Ancient Greek Gentile schools of Philosophy it is surprisingly only Atheist Determinism I can't find.  The Epicureans were Atheist Existentialists and Objectivists, the Stoics were Compatibilists but often seen by their Platonist rivals as more Determinist, the only hard Determinist was Aristotle who basically invented Deism.  And the Theistic Existentialists were the Middle Platonists like Plutarch who wrote against the Determinism of the Stoics.

In Josephus's descriptions of The Sects of First Century Judaism, the Essenes seem like Middle Platonists or Neopythagoreans on everything but their position on Fate vs Free Will, while the Sadducees seem like Aristotleans on everything but Fate vs Free Will.  It looks like Greco-Roman era Jews for some reason swapped that one part of those two ways of thinking.  However the Pharisees out of whom came the Zealots and Early Christians seemed to agree with the Stoics on both Fate vs Free Will and other metaphysical issues, the Stoics merely lacked knowledge of The Resurrection.

Pelagianism is a trend in Christianity that already existed before the person for whom it is named (in Early Arianism it's shown how the Arians were proto Pelagians).  That trend is the bizarre notion that it's because Humans are innately Good being made in the Image of God and given Life by the Breath of God that we are supposed to believe in Absolute Free Will and that each human is personally responsible for their moral failings.  It's actually absurd to believe those two things at the same time, but because Augustine normalized The Latin Church taking the exact opposite position on both those things Christians were conditioned to think they go together.

However I feel a lot of modern Internet SJWs are basically Secular Pelagians.  They claim to believe in the innate goodness of Humanity at least when they're refuting the Authoritarian Philosophy of Thomas Hobbes.  But then turn around and are very against allowing "excuses" for the people they consider evil.

Like for example the notion that suggesting someone's Mental Illness or Trauma was even partly to blame for their wrongdoings is offensive to the people with the same issues who didn't do anything like similar.  And I wish they could see how that same Logic is applied to Economics by the Right.  Conservatives who keep thinking they can refute everything about how inherently unfair our current system is by pointing to "Rags to riches" stories of people who succeeded in-spite of their disadvantages.  And we correctly explain how that probably had as much or more to do with Luck then it does Merit.

Instead of jumping to call it Ableist to suggest that Crimes are a result of Mental Illness we should start considering that there is no such thing as a person not Mentally Ill, we just haven't diagnosed all the illnesses we have yet.

But another factor is how many of them have the same Vengeful Emotional Desire for Retributive Justice that leads to Conservatives attacking Democrats for being Soft on Crime have, simply directed agaisnt "The Nazis".  And make no mistake it is better to direct your desire for Righteous Vengeance agaisnt those with real Power, but at the end of the day it's still an unhealthy mindset.

We should be seeking to dismantle our current Criminal Justice System entirely, not redirect it.

Too many of the people who've figured out how Evil Capitalism is, are still buying into parts of it's justifying ideology.  Meritocracy, Individualism and Personal Accountability are all vital fundamentally linked to each other pillars of neoliberal ideology, believing in one of them will always eventually lead to the others.

In Platonist Philosophy 80- BC to AD 250 by George Boys-Stones chapter 12 talks about how the Middle Platonists and Stoics disagreed on Free Will, it's not prefect as the author seems to be on the Platonist side in this chapter.  He notes how the Platonists didn't even believe God is All Knowing, so even Bible Verses on God knowing the End from the Beginning (like Isaiah 46:9-11) make it more compatible with Stoicism then Platonism.

He says one of the problems with Stoicism is that it "removed moral responsibility" and doesn't explain why that's a problem, that conclusion is as an argument itself.   It reminds me of In Praise of Shadow's YT video on Lovecraft, after an hour of basically utterly debunking the notion that Lovecraft had Free Will he suddenly asserts that "he chose" to be a Racist.  Personal Moral Responsibility is such a given in our Capitalist Society that even many who say they oppose Capitalism refuse to question it.

Update April 2023: I've since learned that most Epicureans were not strictly Atheists but just as Deist as Aristotle.  So the Sadducees can then be viewed as Jewish Epicureans.  

The Essenes I think were ultimately more Pythagorean then Platonist and so that could explain why they had such a different position on Free Will from Middle Platonists.  

Tuesday, September 13, 2022

Homoousion Stoicism

The Irony is I began my flirtation with Christian Stoicism by considering certain assumptions all sides of the Nicene V Arian controversy agreed on regarding the Usias of God possibly wrong in my God and the Universe post.  But I have since found that the Stoics did sometimes use the word Usias in defining their distinction between God as the Active Matter and the visible material world as Passive Matter.  Meaning in that sense even Stoic Christians could agree that Humans other then Jesus are not exactly Homousian with God in the same way Jesus is.

However my argument was never that the Nicene Creed was wrong, and I still consider the fixation on various forms of Usias a partial distraction from the original point of the Arian heresy.  And what I've learned reading Early Arianism shows that Arius and Athanasius arguments did hinge a lot on both agreeing with Divine Immutability.

The reason why I'm making this new post on the subject is Tertullian.  Many Scholars have observed a degree of Stoicism in Tertullian including his willingness to argue that God is in a sense Corporeal.


Now Tertullian's Stoicism is definitely tainted a bit by later Roman Stoicism when it comes to things like Sexual Morality so he's still fallen away from the New Testament in that sense.  But the Metaphysics is the point of discussion here.

He was still critical of some Stoic ideas just like I am, but what baffles me is how he thought Marcion who was more Gnostic then the Gnostics in his attitude towards the material world owed anything to the Stoics?

Tertulian is also famously cited as the only Pre-Nicene Father who even comes close to defining the Trinity in Nicene-Homousian terms with his use of Substantia which is arguably the Latin equivalent of Usias. So could even Tertulian's use of Substantia be influenced by Stoic uses of Usias?

According to Eusebius of Caesarea it was Constantine himself who insisted on the Homousian thermology.  But we also know that at Nicaea Constantine didn't know Greek very well, he was a firmly Western Latin in his language.  And since Tertullian was the first Latin Church Theologian, I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest Constantine got this Homousian idea from Tertullian's Trinitarian use of Substantia.

So it could be that in-spite of how much Platonism was already running strong in the Fourth Century Church that Homoousionism was one final win for the Stoic Theology.

Monday, June 13, 2022

Elections are incompatible with the Classical Definition of Democracy

This goes beyond even how we usually talk about the distinction between Direct Democracy and Representative Democracy.  

Even the most direct Democracy still needs magistrates of some sort to enforce laws and manage things, and make quick decisions in a crisis when there isn't time to debate.  In classical Athenian direct democracy these magistrates were not chosen by voting but by the Lot (Sortition), meaning a qualified citizen was selected at random.

The never implemented hypothetical constitution proposed by Hippodamus of Miletus is described as "less democratic then Athens only in that magistrates were chosen by Election rather then by lot".  In other words it's not just that Elections weren't required for Democracy, they were contrary to it.  Sparta is thought of as the antithesis of Athens and in turn the most anti-democratic City-State of Classical Greece, but Sparta did have elected magistrates in the Ephors, and they were often the actual Power in Sparta rather then the Kings.

Athenian Democracy considered Elections a threat because they didn't want one person to become too Popular, Popular enough to form a popular Tyranny, and choosing magistrates by popularity inevitably leads to cults of personality.  

The evangelists of Athenian Style Democracy considered the accountability they held magistrates to vital.  Elections make accountability more difficult, when everyone in power is also basically the face of a segment of the population holding them accountable for even the most basic of wrongdoings becomes politicized.  We see this in modern US Politics, in 2016 it was considered dangerous for Trump to make even the suggestion of criminally prosecuting Clinton a campaign promise, but now post January 6th a lot of the same people think it's a dangerous precedent not to prosecute Trump even as he's officially running for president again.

When people accuse modern western Democracies of actually being Oligarchies they usually mean that in the sense of how the Rich use their Money and influence to undermine how the system is "supposed" to work.  However Oligarchy as a Greek word is not inherently synonymous with rule by the Wealthy (that would be Plutocracy), it simply means rule by a small group.  Meaning even if American Democracy did work exactly how it claims it's supposed to, that would still be Oligarchy, that would still be rule by a small group rather then the masses, membership in that small group being decided by winning popularity contests (or being appointed by a winner of a popularity contest) doesn't matter, especially when there is no real accountability for representatives who brazenly defy the will of who they represent.  Whatever legitimacy Representative Democracy used to have was destroyed in the Anglosphere by Edmund Burke.

And as long as there are some people who are massively more wealthy then most people, they'll find a way to influence and control the representatives.  Any "campaign finance reform" you pass to address how they're doing it now will only result in them changing their methods.

Now one difference between Classical Athenian Democracy and ours definitely doesn't make theirs look better, and that is the restrictions on who could vote, women, slaves and non native residents were all excluded.  However the United States started with all those same restrictions and more, the Athenian Constitution to which I refer didn't have property requirements, but the U.S. originally did.  We also started with a from of Slavery far more brutal and dehumanizing even then how Sparta treated the Helots.  Women didn't get to vote for over a hundred years, and we still haven't enfranchised all non native born residents.  Plus we take the Vote away from convicted criminals permanently even after they've paid their debt to society.

There is evidence that there were people in Ancient Athens who sought similar reforms, perhaps the people being satirized by Aristophanes in The Assemblywomen, if the Athenian experiment hadn't been cut short by being conquered by Sparta, Macedon and Rome perhaps those reformers too could have succeeded in time. And then in the Hellenistic Era we get the Stoics who I've already talked about on this blog.

Saturday, May 7, 2022

The Reformation and the Resurgence of Democracy

It is pretty well known that what we commonly call THE French Revolution was not the last French Revolution.  But what if I told you that, from a certain point of view, it wasn’t the first either?  It can be argued that the French Wars of Religion of the 16th century were a French Revolution that was Protestant rather than Secular in nature. But tragically like many of the later Secular French Revolutions it was betrayed by the very person who won it, Henry Bourbon converting to Catholicism was the Clerical Equivalent of Napoleon being Crowned Emperor. 


This post is a sequel of sorts to Capitalism is Atheistic in Nature, I’m not titling it as a direct parallel because I can't claim Democracy wouldn't exist without Christianity, Ancient Greece definitely had it, and I believe so did Sumerian Kish before Etana.  I mentioned how Capitalism loving New Atheists and YouTube Skeptics love to credit the rise of Capitalism to the Secularism of the Enlightenment, but they also claim credit for Democracy and like the Christian Capitalists of the Eisenhower era try to paint Capitalism and Democracy as inseparable.  But the truth is Capitalism and Democracy are actually incompatible, the only truly Democratic socio-economic system would be Anarcho-Communism, and the only acceptable Representative Democracies are Socialist Republics like Cuba and Vietnam.


That post also acknowledged that some people blame/credit the Protestant Reformation for Capitalism.  The Renaissance and the Enlightenment had both Protestant and Secular sides to them (also a Catholic side but the Catholic Renaissance and Enlightenment was like the New Deal and Huey Long, attempting to appease the people to keep them from running into the arms of the revolutionaries).  And those two sides were not always mutually exclusive, you had Christians who were largely Secular in their mindset or methodology, and non Christians unafraid to draw on Scripture to support their ideas like Thomas Paine in Common Sense.  My thesis in that prior post was that Capitalism is chiefly the product of the Secular side, while here I shall argue that the Return of The Demos was mostly the product of the Reformation.


Part 1: Ecclesiastical Polity


Church Governance was not the initial main point of dispute upon which the Reformation started, but it very quickly became an important topic of debate.  There are primarily three different positions on Church Governance, others do exist like the weird system Methodism has, but they were devised much later and can be argued to be simply fiddling around with these three.


Episcopal Polity: The form used by The Church of The East, The Oriental Orthodox, The Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans (Episcopalian as a name for a denomination usually means Anglicans in the United States), and some Lutheran Churches.


Presbyterian Polity: The form used by the Reformed Churches of the Continent in Switzerland, The Netherlands and parts of Germany as well as the Huguenots and Protestant minorities in France.  But Presbyterian as the name of a denomination refers to the denomination founded by John Knox which became most popular in Scotland, they are today also the largest Christian Church in South Korea.


Congregational Polity:  As the name of a specific denomination refers to a subgroup of the Puritans that included the founders of Boston MA and Oliver Cromwell., but it was also the Polity used by most of the most well known Puritans including the Plymouth Pilgrims, the Baptists and the Quakers.  It also seems to apply to Anabaptist sects like the Mennonites, Hutterites and Amish.  It can be hard to determine with Proto-Protestant groups that no longer exist, but it looks to me like the Waldenses and Taborite were probably Congregational.


Episcopal Polity is basically Clerical Monarchy, Presbyterian Polity is Clerical Oligarchy or Parliamentarianism, and Congregational Polity is Clerical Democracy.  There are of course differences within each form as well, for example what Separates Catholicism from other Episcopalians is viewing The Bishop of Rome as beyond just a Duke(Bishop) Archduke(Archbishop), Prince(Cardinal) or King(Patriarch) but as essentially the Emperor of The Church.


I like to describe my own personal position on Ecclesiastical Polity as Congregationalism with Presbyterian Characteristics.  The reason being that the most well known Congregationalists, those who bear the name and Baptists, seem to be classified this way chiefly for their localism over regionalism but sure seem to have Episcopal Characteristics in how the Local Pastor is viewed.  But even in Presbyterian Denominations it still seems like the weekly Church service is usually one person giving a speech everyone else listens to, which I view as a monarchial tending problem itself. And that criticism itself parallels criticisms of modern Secular Democracies. In many ways I think the Quakers are doing most things better then anyone else.


All three words used to define these forms of Church Government are Biblical, so the first step to seeing who is Biblically Correct is looking into how these words are used in The Bible.


Episcopas is a Greek word that is most literally translated Overseer, but in translations like the KJV more often becomes Bishop, and KJV only Independent Baptists usually use Bishop as the chief Biblical synonym for what they mean by Pastor.  Interestingly the Spartan title of Ephor is derived from the same Greek Root but in a different dialect making it equivalent in it's essential meaning.


Presbyter is a Greek word that is usually translated Elder but I actually feel like Senior conveys the intended meaning better at least in how The New Testament uses it.  Better yet, if I were based on my perspective as a Christian who watches a lot of Anime asked to consult on a Japanese translation of The Bible, I would advise them to translate Presbyter as Senpai and Newtron as Kohai at least in 1 Peter and the Pastoral Epistles.


Neither of these words was meant to refer to an office in any kind of hierarchy, the word “office” is used, but it means a job or function not a position of authority.  I’m a supporter of the House Church Movement, which means I’ve observed how there were no Church buildings till the 3rd Century, the Early Church met in each other’s homes.  Any context where Episcopas seems to be in use in a very singular sense, as in this Church at this time seemingly only has one, it’s probably the owner of the house they’re currently meeting in, the host of the meeting is naturally also responsible for organizing and overseeing it.  But in other contexts like Acts 20 and 1st Peter even many who defend the Episcopalian developments of the 2nd through 4th Centuries admit that all the Presbyters are Overseers in those passages.  However I feel the word Deacon is also used interchangeably with Episcopas, Deacon means a servant.


When 1st Peter is talking about elder and younger believers, I don’t think he means by how long it’s been since they came out of their mother’s womb, but by how long they’ve been a Christian.  Anarchist Philosophers have argued it does not conflict with Anarchism to defer to the authority of someone more experienced than you on a certain subject, and for Christian Anarchists that is how Divine Authority is reconciled, God is older and more experienced than all of us but Scripture actually does depict Him as okay with His decisions being questioned.  This is a form of that, Peter is saying that newer believers should seek guidance from those with more experience, but also stresses how those elders need to take seriously the responsibility that comes with that.


William Tyndale chose not to use the word Church in his English Translation of The New Testament, during this early period some Protestants were concerned the word Church itself was perhaps too inherently owned by the Catholic Church, and it was in fact never a good direct translation of The Greek.  So the Greek word Ekklesia he translated as Congregation, and even in the KJV (which is largely just a revision of Tyndale) and more modern Bibles "Congregation" instead of Church is still used a few times.  Because it is a pretty good literal translation of what Ekklesia means, but not the only way to translate it. 


You see the word Ekklesia was previously a big part of Greek politics and discussions of politics where in those contexts it is often translated Assembly.  The Ekklesia was in Athens and other Greek Democracies the word for the gathering together of the citizenry to discuss an issue and then vote on it, but they did exist in less strictly Democratic states as well since even the most monarchial monarchies often felt the need to consult the people.


The New Testament usage is not unrelated to the Civil Government usage, The Church is the Kingdom of Heaven, and Christ is King but even in The Davidic Monarchy the King still had to involve The People, indeed Ekklesia is also used in the Septuagint to translate equivalent Hebrew Words, as well as in Stephen’s Description of the Mosaic gathering of the people in Acts 7.  And there are hints in the New Testament of the local Ekklesia making decisions democratically.


So the first argument for Congregationalism is that only Congregationalists don't need to massively add to the meaning of the Biblical word they're named for. The word itself was inherently an expression of Democracy in Ancient Greek. Meanwhile Episcopas was not a word Monarchists would use for a Monarch and the closest similar word used in a political context was an example of representative democracy.


Most ancient Oligarchical forms of Government originated as Councils of Elders including pre Solon Athens and Sparta, either the heads of all of the Tribes families, or the heads of the aristocratic ruling families like Parliament's House of Lords.  A Council of Elders is what the Latin in origin word Senate actually means etymologically, and it’s also what the Sanhedrin is in Numbers 11 (Josephus called it the Senate of the Jews).  A council of Elders can play a role in how a Democracy functions, but it shouldn’t be the final and certainly not the only authority.


The Episcopalians’ main argument is that they have a lot of precedent on their side, the Church had been pretty Episcopal for well over a thousand years, you can’t even conceivably blame Constantine for this one. Indeed I don’t think one single big bad is to blame, though Ignatius of Antioch is the earliest Church writer we have who explicitly argued for Episcopalianism.  Ignatius gets referred to as a student of the same “John” who Polycarp was a student of, but the oldest sources on Polycarp being a student of a “John”, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Papias, mention only him and not Ignatius, and Ignatius in the letter he supposedly wrote to Polycarp makes no mention of them having a shared mentor, and neither refers to a “John” as their mentor in any of their own authentic writings.  Papias the oldest source on Polycarp and this John clearly distinguishes him from John The Apostle calling him John the Presbyter. 


Some supporters of Episcopalianism will admit that originally Churches founded by Peter and Paul were Presbyterian (I don’t even think they were that) but claim that "Johannian" Churches in Asia were Episcopalian, basing that largely on Ignatius and Polycarp.  However Polycarp in his one letter refers to himself as one Episcopas among a group. But either way something starting in Asia isn't a good sign since Paul referred to Asia departing from him, and in Revelation 2-7 most of the Churches in this region have some doctrinal problems. I'm not the only person to argue that Episcopal Polity is the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans.


The second century seems to be the key transitional century for the rise of Episcopalianism, some have argued it was a “necessary” development for dealing with the Heretics, needing an authoritative leader to refute and oppose them.  These Heretical sects were often founded by individual Heretics with a bit of a cult of personality around them like Cerinthus, Maricon and Valentinius.  So the "Proto Orthodox" responded to the Heretics by imitating their tactics.


But the second century was also the century over the course of which Platonism supplanted Stoicism as the leading Metaphysical Philosophy of the Greco-Roman World, including the beginning of its influence on Christianity. 


In Stoicism and Early Christianty I argue that the Early Christians were somewhat Stoic, but Stoics who were socially and morally more like the original Stoicism of Zeno rather than later Roman Stoicism.  Zeno was born a Phoenician on Cyprus but he founded his School in Athens.  The original Stoics were people who’s criticism of Athenian Democracy was that it wasn’t Democratic enough, they wanted full Gender Equality and the abolition of Slavery, as well as a Socio-Economic system we would today call Communist. This lines up well with Paul in Galatians 3 who says that in Christ's Ekklesia there is no distinction between Male/Female or Free/Slave or Jew/Gentile (Native/Immigrant).


However Xenophon, Plato and Aristotle were Athenians who HATED Democracy, they idolized many aspects of Sparta (though in The Laws attributed to Plato the Athenian blames Sparta for the spread of the Homosexuality he wanted to stamp out).  Aristotle of course broke with his former teacher on many things, and his books on Politics criticized both of Plato’s constitutions, he praised Sparta but ultimately gave higher praise to Carthage and Solon’s Constitution. It was actually Xenophon who was the most unconditionally in-love with Sparta.


Plato’s Republic gets misconstrued as Communist because it technically has no Private Property, but it is still very much a class based society, there was no discussion of liberating the Slaves.  In The Republic the Monarchy of a "Philosopher King" is Plato's ideal but an Oligarchy of "Guardians" is the acceptable alternative in the absence of a perfect ruler, and so I suspect Platonized Christianity gave rise to both Presbyterianism and Episcopalianism. The Republic's Communalism was only for the elite class of Guardians not the common people which I think may play a role in where Monasticism came from. Plato's Statesman also argued for Monarchy being the ideal.


But a degree of congregationalism might have survived longer then we generally assume. Just look at the history between the first two Ecumenical Councils when the Empire actually had two Arian Emperors. People will often take the the technical fact that both Arian Emperors at least started as Eastern Emperors to imply Arianism was actually popular in the East during this time, but this ignores the history of the Bishoprics of Antioch and Alexandria, where Arian Emperors kept trying to remove the Nicene Bishops like Athanasius of Alexandria, Eustathius of Antioch and Cyril of Jerusalem and replace them with personally appointed Arians yet the people of those Congregations refused to accept them. Same with the Arab Rebellion lead by Queen Mavia agaisnt the Arian Emperor Valens. It even happened in Constantinople itself, the Nicene Paul I of Constantinople always had the popular support of the people, Cosntantius II used violent force to defy them.

Or even later when we look at Bede's account of Augustine of Canterbury's disagreements with the Briton/Welsh clergy at meetings like the Synod of Chester, the Bishops themselves left the meeting open to at least some of Augustine's proposed changes but said they'd have to check with the People first, at it's core that's Congregationalism.

Now remember what I said about Capitalism and Democracy being incompatible?  Part of that is how Socialists believe Democracy should be expanded to the workplace.  Most Corporations are either Monarchies with one absolute CEO or Oligarchies ruled by a Board of Directors representing the wealthy shareholders. Worker owned Co-Opts would be Democracy but they are rare, the current status quo actively opposes allowing such experiments to succeed.

I've talked about the doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers before, but those passages often come hand in hand with the Kingship of all Believers. Christ and God are both King, but they intend to share their Scepter with Us.

Paul Cartledge has a lecture you can watch on YouTube called Ten Things You Really Should Know about Ancient Greek Democracy. One of the points of the lecture is that it seems like in ancient times the word Democracy may have been inherently derogatory and thus rarely if ever used by people who actually supported it, most of the ancient Greek works that have survived are not very pro Democracy, even the writings of the early Stoics are mostly lost. So in that context the word Democracy not being used in The New Testament may itself be evidence that it's one of the few pro Democracy Ancient Greek Texts to survive. And maybe the word Ekklesia could have been the key word in whatever now lost label the ancient Democrats called themselves.

Here are some articles on Congregational Polity, one of them ties in their Dispensationalism which I disagree with.

That last one contains more documentation on what I said above, popular election was playing a role in how Bishop were chosen all through the 4th Century.

Part 2: Applying Ecclesiastical Governance to Civil Governance.


Protestants applying their views of Church Government to Civil Government started before the Reformation proper actually, when we look at the history of Proto-Protestantism, John Ball and his Peasant Revolt was contemporary with John Wycliffe and the Hussite Reformation was soon followed by the Taborite Rebellion.


Then not long after Martin Luther’s message had developed a big following Thomas Munster led an Anarcho-Communist revolt in Germany, then Luther being the evil scumbag he was ordered the Aristocratic Feudal Lords he had converted to his new doctrine to put them down, and there were other Anabaptist revolts as well, but by the end of the 16th century most Anabaptists were absolute Pacifists.


It was Rebels seeking to empower Presbyterianism who were the first to gain success with Zwingli making his preference for Aristocracy clear followed by the Dutch Revolt that started in the 1560s.  And then the English Revolutions of the 16th Century only empowered Parliament (the Presbytery they’d had since long before the Reformation) not the People.  Though more genuinely Congregational rebel groups were involved like Gerrard Winstanley’s Diggers.


Jennifer Tolbert Roberts in Athens On Trial: The Antidemocratic Tradition in Western Thought observes in the chapter on the English Revolution how it was the philosophers of Absolute Monarchy like Thomas Hobbes and Robert Filmer who had studied the Classical Pagan Texts of Greece and Rome and felt they supported their conclusions since it was mostly critics of Athens who's works have survived not Athens' defenders. While it was the most radical of Democrats like the Diggers and Levelers who showed no interest in any secular Classics but based their conclusions on how they interpreted The Bible.

And to verify my point about Democracy and Capitalism not going together originally, the earliest Enclosures of the Commons done in the 17th Century were by the Jacobite Monarchs, James I and Charles I, they were among the grievances that the Presbyterian and Congregational rebels held against them, and then after that Revolution they were put on hold till deep into the Hanover period. England's first even kind of Democratic Revolution was in part a resistance to primitive Capitalism. Robert Filmer not John Locke was the real English Language innovator of the modern Capitalist understanding of Private Property, and he was staunchly anti-Democracy.

Over in the Colonies New England was founded by Congregational Puritans, and Pennsylvania by the even more Congregational Quakers.  But Maryland was founded by Catholics and the South by Royalist Anglican Cavilers loyal to the Jacobite Monarchs.  In a way the American Civil War was a long delayed Sequel to the English Civil War.  Atun Shei Films has a video on Puritanism that acknowledges both their good and bad points.   It was also under the influence of Puritans like Richard Bernard that England under Cromwell ended it's ban on Jews that had stood since the 13th Century.


In the 17th Century English Revolution different people's positions on Ecclesiastical Polity lined up pretty consistently with their positions on Civil Governance, the Catholics and Anglicans were the Monarchists, the Presbyterians were the Parliamentarians and the Puritans and Quakers were the Democrats.


Later on plenty of Protestants would become openly explicit in not wanting the same kind of Governance for The State they do for The Church.  Alexander Hamilton’s Federalist Party was religiously speaking dominated by the New England Congregationalists, a denomination founded on Clerical Localism, so why were they so opposite politically?  Well they still had the Puritan Attitude that the State should regulate Morality, so they wanted a strong Federal Government regulating public morality, and that's what Hamilton and Adams promised them.


But it's also noticeable that in-spite of their voting base being Congregationalist the leadership of the party was largely Episcopalians, Hamilton, James Wilson, Gouverneur Morris, Robert Morris, Rufus King, Charles Cotesworth Pickeny, John Rutledge, Edward Rutledge, George Walton and William Samuel Johnson. And then there's Patrick Henry who was a rare Federalist who had been an opponent of ratifying the Constitution. These are largely the same people Eric Nelson talks about in Royalist Revolution who wanted the office of President to be King in all but name. There were Congregationalists who ultimately sided with the Democratic-Republicans like Samuel Adams, Josiah Bartlett and both representatives of New Hampshire at the Constitutional Convention. John Hancock never joined either Party but his concerns about the Constitution clearly showed Democratic-Republican leanings.


Modern Evangelical Dominionists will talk about how the phrase “Separation of Church and State” comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a Pastor, and say it explains how it's there to protect the Church from the State not the other way around.  The historical context they are leaving out is that this was a Baptist Pastor, and back then Baptists were very much still a minority religion even in the State they had founded, and the Boston Congregationalists especially hated the Baptists remembering Roger Williams as an Apostate from their Church.  Jefferson was promising a minority religion protection from the majority religion in bed with the then ruling Party.


I don’t feel like retreading all the Roger Williams territory here, I recommend John M. Barry’s book Roger Williams and The Creation of The American Mind.


Roger Williams and John Clarke weren't the only association the Baptists had with the fight for Freedom of Religion, it goes back to the founders of the General Baptists John Smyth and Thomas Helwys, and after them Richard Overton of the Levellers during the English Revolution and John Leland contemporary with the American Revolution.  Nor are they the only association the Baptists have with the Abolitionist movement, Elhanan Winchester was a prominent early American Abolitionist as was Morgan John Rhys, Slavery in the British Empire was finally outlawed as the result of a Slave Rebellion in Jamaica lead by Baptists called the Baptist War, and Charles Spurgeon also strongly opposed Slavery, and George Washington Williams is also worth mentioning as are Amos Tuck and Edwin Hurlbut. The Randalite Free Will Baptists were also known for their opposition to Slavery Then in more modern times the PNBC was important to the Civil Rights Movement.  The Southern Baptists were originally very much the atypical Baptists, breaking off from the the oldest American Baptist Church (the one founded by Williams and Clarke) because it opposed Slavery, it was a long complicated history that made them the largest Protestant Church in the U.S.  And even today while Southern Baptists are America's largest single Baptist Denomination they are still less then 50% of the total.


However the Quakers became even more virulent abolitionists.


But let’s go back to the discussion of France.  John Calvin himself made a Christian argument for Regicide during the French Wars of Religion.  During the French Enlightenment, of the key Philosophs who died before The Revolution broke out, the only one who was a Christian was Rousseau who was raised Calvinist went Catholic for a while but then returned to Calvinism. He was also the only one who was a Communist rather than a Liberal.  He is a key transitional figure in the Secularization of Communism as unlike prior Christian Communists his argument for it was Secular.  Montesquieu was however not as hostile to religion as Voltaire and did use The Bible in his writings, though exactly how has been misrepresented by certain Evangelicals.


The French Revolution was the beginning of the Secularization of both Democracy and Communism, and at the same time the final stage of them being seemingly separated from each other.


France was the first place where certain ideas that began as inherently Protestant were slowly able to be considered by Catholics, and eventually non Christians. Partly this is because of the French perspective that people like Calvin provided to the Reformed Tradition from the beginning. Partly it's because Rousseau was good at making his ideas sound appealing to those who don't share his Faith. And partly it's because a lot of the Philosophs and early French Revolutionary leaders were kind of Anglophiles.


Contrary to popular stereotypes about the French Revolution, it was initially lead more by Christians (mostly Catholics but some Protestants) some were even clergy, the Atheists and Deists were present from the start but it took them years to take over. These Christians include Emmanuel Joseph Sieyes who authored the Revolution's original Declaration of Independence, so too probably were his allies Baily and Lafayette. Jacques Necker and other Calvinists from Geneva. Jean-Paul Rabaut Saint-Etienne who authored France's first Edict of Toleration. Claude Fauchet who originally lead the Cercel Social where he first argued for a Rousseau inspired Democratic reorganization of the Gallican Church. Henri Gregoire, Antoine-Adrien Lamourette, Pierre Claude Froncois Dauno and Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Dobel who were important supporters of the Civil Constitution of The Clergy. And Jacques Roux who was the leader of the actual Communists of the Revolution (the Jacobins were all Classical Liberals) the Enrages.


Same was true for the English Sympathizers of The Revolution which include Reverend Richard Price, the Christian Communist Thomas Spence and the founders of modern Unitarianism Gilbert Wakefield and Joseph Priestley.


There is a neat video on YouTube about how Rousseau's radical Democracy came from the local largely informalized Democratic values of his hometown of Geneva.

The Roots of Modern Democracy

Well the Geneva that Rousseau grew up in was a product of Calvin. The Regional Synods we usually associate with Presbyterianism came from others not Calvin himself, Calvin organized a local Church Government for the city of Geneva, in the grand scheme of things he may well have been more Congregationalist then people assume.