Showing posts with label Baptists. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Baptists. Show all posts

Wednesday, March 12, 2025

Sabians of the Quran were Ancient Arab Baptists

My past speculations about who the Sabians of The Quran were I have abandoned and come to a new conclusion. 

The problem with thinking it was in any way derived from how Sabeans of Yemen were referred to is that the Quran does refer to them explicitly in Surah 27 and Surah 34.  So they are distinct. The "I" coming right after the B is what makes it very distinct.


Daniel Chwolsohn in 1856 suggested it’s derived from an Aramaic word meaning “To Dip” or “To Baptize”.  This fits well with other theories I support about some of the Quran being at least indirectly of Aramaic origin.  Another proposed Etymology is that it comes from the Arabic word Sabi meaning “to turn to” and thus means “Converts”.  Perhaps both are true, perhaps it’s a pun combining them to refer to people for whom Baptism and Conversion are the same, for observers of Believers Baptism.


Others interpreting the meaning of the word in that Baptism context argue it refers to the Mandeans.  The Mandeans rejected Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus and thus did not revere any of the Books necessary to qualify as “People of The Book”, nor are they Monotheist by even the loosest sense.  Also they only existed in Iraq back then and in fact didn’t come into contact with Muslims till after they Conquered parts of Iraq in 633-640. It seems they only started calling themselves Sabians in order to co-opt this Quranic term and appropriate “People of the Book” status.


To repeat myself, I am not a Landmark Baptist in the doctrinal sense of thinking that an unbroken chain of Believers Baptism back to the Apostles matters.  But I do believe there have always been Christians who came to the correct conclusions on Believers Baptism and other distinctly Baptist views like Congregational Polity and Freedom of Conscience.


The word translated “Christians” in English Translations of the Quran is Nasara or Nasrani. Nazarenes is a term used for Christians in Acts 24:5, by the late 4th Century Epiphanais of Salamis and Jerome were using it specifically for Jewish Christians who still kept Torah in Aleppo and Bashan. These Narzarnes do teach Jesus was the Son of God and do consider Canonical the entire New Testament and consider Paul a valid Apostle unlike the Ebionites they are sometimes confused with.  But I do suspect Ebionites may have also called themselves Nazarenes.  Liturgically Aramaic Christians sometimes use a variation of Nazarenes instead of Christians even while being Gentiles with no Torah observance at all.  


The term Mushrikun often translated as “Idolaters’ or “Pagans” actually means “Associators”.  I can’t entirely agree with those who argue Paganism was already dead in Arabia well before Muhammad was born, but Christianity or Judaism had become the majority and dominant religion all over the Peninsula.  Shirk “Associating a Human with Allah” is something the Quran considers the Jews, Nasara and probably Sabians all guilty of in their own way.  But it’s possible each are smaller groups not as bad as the unqualified Musrikun which I think mainly referred to the Chalcedonian and Miaphysite Christians who held the actual political power in Western Arabia.  The Ghassanids and Banu Kalb were both Miaphysites and the Kingdom of Kinda were likely either Miaphysite or Chalcedonian as Byzantine Foederati.


The idea that the Sabians are particularly tied to the Psalms came from later Islamic speculations.  While the Psalms of David are the only Book besides the Torah and Gospel specifically mentioned in the Quran no verse says there were a people of the Palms specifically. 


It might be that the Sabians aren’t linked to a specific Book because they are the ones who have a high enough view of Scripture to revere them all equally.  While the Jewish-Christian Nazarenes prioritize The Gospel of Matthew and the Jews the Pentateuch. Meanwhile the High Church Mushrikun placed their ecclesiastical tradition above Scripture entirely which might be why they’re seeming kind of excluded from being People of The Book.  Another trait the Sabians would today share almost only with Credo-Baptist Denominations. 


There were probably not a lot of them hence being mentioned only three times. But there were enough to be worthy of note.

Saturday, December 7, 2024

King James only Baptists baffle me

I myself am very sympathetic to the King James Onlists on certain matters, like which source texts to use and which books, chapters and verses are and are not Canon, and the biggest issues I have with the KJV aren’t fixed by newer translations but often made worse.  I even consider the KJV compatible with certain doctrines many assume you have to reject the KJV to support like Universal Salvation.

The most Extreme KJV Onlists tend to be Baptists or younger sects of partially Baptist origin (Like Millerites and Pentecostals).

Baptists are at their core Hyper Congregationalists, yet part of the agenda behind the King James Bible was doubling down on High Church Translation decisions of the Geneva Bible like translating Ekklesia as Church, Episcopas as Bishop and Diakonos as Deacon.

KJV onlyists get around these issues by simply repeatedly saying that “Church in the Bible just means a gathering of believers”, and that is accurate to what the Greek word Ekklesia means, but that’s not what the English word Church means.  In its origin the English word Church refers to a type of building.  Words can change meaning over time, some of my issues with the KJV are words that were correct at the time but not anymore.  You can’t however simply force it to happen, the word Church still first and foremost puts the idea of either a religious building or a hierarchical organized religion in most people's minds.

William Tyndale used the word Congregation for Ekklesia which is why our position on Ecclesiastical Polity is called Congregational Polity. But perhaps an even better English translation would be Assembly, that’s how Ekklesia is usually translated when discussing the word’s use in Secular Greek Politics where it means the gathering together of the Citizenry of a Polis to discuss an issue and then Vote.  But nowadays the word Assembly in politics is used by some bodies of Representatives rather than Direct Democracy, but the same has happened to the root of Congregation thanks to Congress.

As a Christian Weeb the word I would suggest if consulting on a Japanese Bible is Shukai.

Episcopas means Overseer or one "who presides over a meeting" and Diakanos means Servant or Minister or Messenger, I think even Secretary could work.

Bishop and Deacon are hard to call absolutely wrong when they are technically just evolutions of the original Greek words.  But it’s precisely their lack of nativeness to the English Language that makes them sound like grander positions of prestige than the Scriptures themselves intended.  Further reinforced by all the High Church baggage attached to them by Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Episcopalian usage where Bishop has come to mean the clerical Monarch of at least an entire City.

KJV Only Baptists don’t usually use the word Bishop outside of directly quoting Scripture because they know the word doesn’t to most people mean what they want it to.

Priest is a uniquely Biblically awkward word since it etymologically derives from the Greek Presbyter but in modern English Bibles isn't used to translate that word instead being used in the Hebrew Bible for Kohen (and the Hurrian loan word Komer) and in the Greek New Testament for Hiereus. All the more reason to just not use it at all anymore.

As someone who does believe in honoring the Hebrew Roots of the faith in certain contexts I would just use Kohen to translate Kohen (and Kehuna for Priesthood) and for Hiereus when it’s referring to the Israelite Priesthood as well as that of Melchizedek and All Believers. 

And to add some Anti-Papist flavor I’d use Pontiff for Komer and the Hiereus of Dios/Zeus/Jupiter in Acts 14:13.  But since a Japanese Bible isn’t likely to want to be so directly Anti-Catholic it should just use words for Shinto Priests and Priesthood for Komer and Acts 14:13.

Translating Presbyter as Elder isn’t really wrong in any way, but I do feel connotatively many readers will first think a Fifty at the youngest type of Elder.  The alternative Senior has a similar problem but at least most people remember it being associated with High School Students.  As I’ve said before I very much like identifying Presbyter with Senpai and Newtron with Kohai for Japanese.  Senpai however is in the English Urban Dictionary now so is not out of the question for an English Translation, and lacks the potential misunderstanding as a word that refers inherently to someone grandfather aged. Presbuterion I would just translate depending on context either Elders or Council.

1 Timothy 4:14 is the only time Presbuterion is used among Believers, the other two times it’s of the Judean Sanhedrin.  So I imagine this verse plays a role in debates between Congregationalists and Presbyterians.  I don’t know how most Baptists explain this but I feel it’s just a reference to the believers doing the laying on of hands being older in the Faith than the person receiving.  Nothing here to justify a committee meeting of elders who lead different congregations meeting in a Sanhedrin like fashion.  And it certainly refer to the people of one local Congregation not a regional council.

However I identify as a Congregationalist principally because of my belief in Ecclesiastical Direct Democracy.  In terms of the Localism vs Regionalism aspect of where Congregationalists and Presbyterians differ, I kind of fall between them.  There is no Biblical support for a single City having more then one Ekklesia, remember an Ekklesia means the entire citizenry of a Polis a City.  Fortunately thanks to Galatians 3:28 we know the Ekklesia of Christ does not exclude Women, Slaves or Ethnic Foreigners.  When all Believers regardless of location are referred to as one Ekklesia like 1 Timothy 3:15 that's the Ekklesia of the Heavenly Zion/New Jerusalem of Hebrew 12:22. Revelation 3:12, 20:9, and 21-22.

Calvin and Zwingli were also only ever devising Church Governmental structures for City-States, the Swiss regional Synods came after Calvin died and the formation of the Dutch Reformed Church and Church of Scotland came even later then that.  But I still think even on a city level their models were too organized and hierarchical, there should be no Council with a fixed membership, when the different congregations in a city need to meet they should send representatives chosen for that specific meeting.

Of course we also need to consider how much bigger many modern cities are then even the largest of Ancient Cities.  The Anime Durarara!! Is set in Ikebukuro, Ikebukuro is part of Toshima which is part of Tokyo.  The greater Tokyo Metropolitan Area has a population probably larger even then first century Galatia much less Ephesus.  In this Anime it sure seems like Ikebukuro alone could be an entire Classical Greek Polis.

I am more Congregationalist even then most Baptists because I don’t believe in there being a single Episcopas even for a local congregation of less than 70 people.  I reject the very notion that the primary structure of a gathering of believers is one person giving a speech and everyone else just nodding in agreement, the picture 1 Corinthians paints involves lots of people talking.  The Overseer(s) of a given meeting oversee it, nothing more.  Sermons have a place, but that’s not what the weekly gathering is for.

Going back to the word Church I actually would consider using it to translate a New Testament Greek word, Naos.  There are three Greek words translated Temple in the KJV, one accounts for only one KJV appearance of Temple and is like the Hebrew Beth a word for House so I'd just translate it House.  The main two are Hieron and Naos.  Hieron is the broader term that can refer to indoor Temples and outdoor Temples and complexes that contain both, that’s the word I’d keep translating as Temple.  Naos however very specifically means an enclosed structure containing a god or a representation of one.

It is Naos that is used of the all believers being God’s Temple doctrine in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19, 2 Corinthians 6:16, Ephesians 2:20-22 and Revelation 3:12, as well each individual believer's Body, and when John 2 calls Jesus’s Body “this Temple”.   

In The Hebrew Bible I’d likewise translate Dybir as Church which is a rarely used word for the building that contains the Holy of Holies in Solomon’s Temple. 

But for a Japanese Bible I’d translate Dybir and Naos as Honden.

Monday, November 11, 2024

Baptists are the most Ironically named type of Christian

I often get the sense that secular people who don’t fully get internal Christian disagreements assume those called Baptists must be the ones with the most extreme views on Baptism.  But actually the difference in how Baptism is practiced by Baptists and before them Anabaptists that caused others to call them by those names is directly a result of seeing Water Baptism as not metaphysically important.

To a large extent what they actually see as most important to their self identity is the belief in Separation of Church and State and the autonomy of the Local Congregation.  Now the second of those is a value they nominally share with Congregationalists, but there is a perception that this was watered down in the Congregationalist Denomination when they started wielding actual state power during the English Revolution and in the New England colonies.

I’m not a Landmark Baptist in the doctrinal sense, I certainly don’t think there needs to be an unbroken continuity of Believers Baptisms or “True Churches” going back to the Apostles.  And I disagree with Novatianism and Donatism.  But I do believe people who informally practiced Low Church Congregational Polity worship in defiance of the mainstream Church and State Authorities have always existed to some extent, sometimes they were also correct on Baptism and sometimes they weren’t.

The first Church was the Jerusalem Church, Eusebius' list of supposed Monepiscpal Bishops of Jerusalem up to the Bar Kokhba revolt is 15, 15 in barely over 100 years and the first two he definitely has span all of the First Century AD. He’s clearly trying to impose Episcopal Polity onto a Church that didn’t have it. I think all of the last half of that list were people still alive when Hadrian banned Jews from the City. 

Epiphanius of Salamis conceded the Nazarenes of Aleppo and Bashan descended from that Jerusalem Church even though he was critical of their practices.  These Nazarenes were certainly Credo-Baptists given they continued the practice of Infant Circumcision.

Philadelphia has no traditional list of Bishops till Nicaea.  For Caesarea after attempting to identify a Biblical figure as its first Bishop Eusebius has no one till Theophilus in 189, and that’s when talking about his own Bishopric.

I talked about the origins of the Waldenses in the Smyrna post on my new Prophecy Blog

And I have a post on the evidence that some of the Brythonic Christians (particularly near Wessex) were Baptists. For possible continuity between them and 17th Century Congregationalists and Baptists in England and America look into this list of names. 

Lollardy
Walter Brute
John Clanvowe
John Badby
John Oldcastle
Hawise Mone
Thomas Harding
William Tyndale

Puritans
John Penry
William Wroth
Walter Cradock
Vavasor Powell
William Erbery
Jenkin Jones

Olchon
Howell Vaughn
Thomas Perry
John Reese Howell
William Vaughan among the first Baptists of Newport Rhode Island.
Thomas Dungan a student of William Vaughan founded first Baptist Church in Pennsylvania.
Elias Keach Baptized by Thomas Dungan and founded Pennepack Baptist Church in Pennsylvania.
Isaac Eaton was raised in the Southampton Baptist Church which was a daughter of the Pennepack Church.
John Gano was Baptized by Isaac Eaton at Hoppewell.

Midland Connections
Edward Wightman of Burton upon Trent near Shrewsbury.
Daniel Wightman of the Second Baptist Church of Newport Rhode Island.
George Wightman grandson of Edward immigrated to North Kingston Rhode Island in 1660.
Stephen Mumford and his wife Anne of Tewkesbury immigrated to Newport Rhode Island in 1664 and founded the first Seventh Day Baptist Church in America.
Valentine Wightman son of George first Pastor of a Baptist Church in Connecticut.
Wait Palmer baptized and ordained by Valentine Wightman.
Shubal Stearns baptized and ordained in 1751 by Palmer in Connecticut.

Vaughn/Vauhan are different forms of the same Welsh name, my unprovable  theory is that the William of Newport was a relative of the Howell of Olchon and that it was possibly also him who Baptized John Clarke and Ezekiel Holliman (who Baptized Roger Williams).  And I think Hansred Knolls became a Baptist before leaving New England under the influence of John Clarke.

I am highly skeptical of the claim that John Gano Baptized George Washington, that is not why I considered him a notable figure to mention here.

With William Kiffin one of the contradictions in his biographical timeline is how some say he was still in Henry Jersey's congregation till 1644 while others say he was leading his own already in 1641.

John Penry does seem the most Proto-Baptist of the 1593 Puritan martyrs, here's a Quote I copy/pasted from A brief Baptist Church history.
"The Church I believe to be a company of those whom the world calleth saints, which do not only profess in word that they know God, but are also subject to his laws and ordinances in deed. With his Church, I do believe that the Lord of his mere favour hath entered into a covenant that He will be their God and they shall be His people. The seals of the Covenant are only two, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. The Church on earth I do not believe to be perfect, although in regard to the order which the Lord has appointed it for the same it must be absolute, but to have many faults and wants in it; yet I assuredly believe that all the true members thereof shall, at the day of judgement receive their perfect communion by Jesus Christ and be crowned with Him with eternal glory, of His mere grace and not for any merit of their own."
I think his influence may be overlooked.

Saturday, November 9, 2024

Infant Baptism wasn't practiced by the Very Early Church.

The Didache is often considered the earliest Extra Biblical Writing.  Chapter 7 is its instructions for Baptism.
“And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.”
And we also see a description of how Baptism works in Justin Martyr’s First Apology chapter 61.
“I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. John 3:5 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. Isaiah 1:16-20

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.”
In both cases clearly only Baptism of Adults are being described.  If Infant Baptism already existed then some distinctions for how that would obviously work differently would need to be made.  But none of these instructions would need to be different for Adults raised in the Faith after reaching a certain age rather than Converts.

Pedo-Baptists try to infer Infant Baptism in various things said by Irenaeus or the Martyrdom of Polycarp or the Shepherd of Hermas but they are all things with other explanations.  

Largely they are tied to assumptions about what Water Baptism does metaphysically that most Credo-Baptists dispute connecting to Baptism in the first place, but I do think those errors actually came first and Infant Baptism is the symptom.  Treating every Biblical reference to Baptism as about Water Baptism when the most important are not about that.  And misunderstanding Colossians as saying Circumcision is replaced by Baptism when in fact Paul's point is that for both the physical ritual is merely a symbol.

The earliest provable unambiguous references to Infant Baptism are in the Third Century, Tertullian and Origen, then Cyprian was the first to really stress it as obligatory.  Origen and Cyprian supported it while Tertullian opposed it, but unfortunately he opposed it for the wrong reasons because he to accepted the false doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration.

I agree that the Novatians were Credo-Baptists even though I disagree with them on their defining doctrine. But I don't think the Donatists were Credo-Baptists.

At least some of the Britons were still Credo-Baptists as late as the early 7th Century.

Thursday, June 6, 2024

Baptists should believe in Universal Salvation.

The first reason is that many Baptists love to stress that Baptists have long been advocates of Religious Freedom aka Liberty of Conscience.  

Baptists have been at the forefront of it right from the beginning of the Baptists as we today understand them with Thomas Helwys and John Smyth.  Before them some notion of Religious Toleration had been proposed in the English speaking world by some 16th Century Puritans like Robert Browne, but for them it was just about disagreements within Christianity (or even just within Protestantism), it was these first Baptists who were the first to argue for Religious Liberty for even Jews, Muslims and Atheists.

And this tradition continued with Leonard Busher followed by Richard Overton, the real ideological brain of the Levellers, and then Roger Williams and John Clarke who founded Rhode Island.  Then Isaac Backus and John Leland during the era of the American Revolution.

My reason for arguing Universal Salvation should naturally go with belief in Liberty of Conscience is not quite what you’d probably first assume.  The relationship between Religious Freedom and Evangelism should be the argument that conversions made under force or coercion simply will not be sincere.  

I believe Jesus Christ should be viewed as the model for Human morality, not as a Sovereign who doesn’t hold Himself to the same rules as His subjects.  So if it’s morally wrong for us to persecute, torture or kill people for holding the wrong beliefs, it’s an absurd contradiction to then say that is ultimately exactly what Jesus will do when He returns.

For the Scriptural Reasons Universal Salvation is true, start by checking out my Six Points of Universal Salvation page, then read other posts with the Universal Salvation tag where I go more in depth.

Now my fellow Universal Salvation believers in Pedobaptist denominations may argue that since Salvation isn't only for a select few; why not just Baptize the babies automatically?  Well as an Evangelical Universalist I still see a meaningful distinction between those who are in The Kingdom already and those who aren’t yet.  Water Baptism is a ritual performed to symbolize choosing to become a full Citizen of The Kingdom.  

But returning to why specifically Baptists should rethink any knee jerk rejection of Universal Salvation is the fact that Baptists who came to that conclusion appeared very early on.  And were even important players in getting the ball rolling on modern Universalism in the first place.

They start at least with the 17th Century Bell Alley General Baptist Church of Thomas Lambe, Henry Denne and Samuel Oats.  And in her book The Reformation of The Heart: Gender and Radical Theology in The English Revolution starting on page 69 Sarah Apetrei highlights the women of that Congregation who were important voices of Universal Salvation like Elizabeth Attaway.  They were an influence on first Gerrard Winstanley and then The Quakers.

The Everlasting Gospel by Georg Klein-Nicolai is a German book on Universal Salvation that seems to have its origin among the Schwarzenau Brethren also called the Dunkers and German Baptists.

The rise of Universal Salvation in the American Colonies in the late 18th Century that led to the foundation of the Universalist Church of America involved several Baptists and people of a Baptist Background.  Elhanan Winchester would probably be the most orthodox to modern Baptists, but there’s also Adams Streeter and Hosea Ballou who also each had been Baptist Pastors, Caleb Rich who was born into a Baptist family, and Giles Chapman who married a German Baptist.  

James Murray and his mentor James Relly never had actual ties to any Baptist Church, but they came to a view on the Sacraments basically the same as the Quakers and like Gerrard Winstanley and the early Quakers a Baptist perspective on the Pedobaptism vs Credobaptism debate plays a role in how they got there.

The Universalist Church of America as a denomination never had a uniform policy on Baptism, but they were always consistently Congregationalist.

George MacDonald had been a Congregationalist, so not a Baptist but someone who'd agree with us on Church Polity.

The main contemporary Baptists who believe in Universal Salvation are the Primitive Baptist Universalists in Appalachia, who are more theologically liberal then other Primitive Baptists (and myself) on a number of things.  I'm hoping writing this can help change that.

The Seventh Day Baptists are partly known for being one of the most allowing of divergent doctrinal views within its denomination.  And I do agree that the Sabbath was never changed to Sunday, that idea is based on a misunderstanding of two verses.  So it does disappoint me that when I read the Statement of Faith on their official website the only belief of mine that is in potential conflict with any part of it is Universal Salvation.  

I also see a logical relationship between Sabbatarianism and Universal Salvation.  Believing that Sunday supplanted the Sabbath goes hand in hand with the mainstream Christian view that God permanently divorced Israel to take a new wife.  I'm not a Dispensationalist or strictly speaking a Two House Theology advocate.  Rather for me God’s determination to restore Israel no matter how far they fall is a specially emphasized part of His refusal to allow any to perish.  

And going back to Sarah Apetrei's book, there is documentation of the wife of John Belcher an early Seventh Day Baptist as Pastor of a Church at Belle Lane in the 1660s believing in Universal Salvation.

I know a lot of Baptists are among the most strict KJV Onlists so I should also link to this old post of mine.

And for the Landmarkists who think the Novatians were ancient Baptists, there is evidence they may have believed in Universal Salvation.  It was their critic Cyprian who popularized the idea that there is no Salvation outside The Church which went hand in hard with how he was also the first to really stress making Infant Baptism obligatory.
Novatus, or as he is often called, Novatian, an eminent presbyter of Rome, who contested the bishopric of the church there with Cornelius, advanced something like Universalism. He extolled in the highest, though in general terms, the unbounded goodness of God (De Regula Fidei, cap. ii., prope finem, edit. Jackson, Lond., 1728, pp. 23-25); and maintained that the wrath, indignation, and hatred of the Lord, so called, are not such passions in him as bear the same name in man; but that they are operations in the divine mind which are directed solely to our purification (De Regula Fidei, cap. iv.). In short, he asserted the peculiar principles of Universalism; but whether he pursued them out to their necessary result does not appear.

Tuesday, November 7, 2023

Arminian Universal Salvation

Strictly speaking Universal Salvation is considered a separate position from either Calvinism or Arminianism, that schism that happened among the Dutch Reformed was predicated on both sides assuming not everyone will be saved.

However among modern proponents of Universal Salvation on the Internet who came out of Protestant Denominations, they mostly come out of fairly mainline ones and thus try to sound more Calvinist then they do Arminian, Peter Hiett is explicit that he is a 4 Point Calvinist removing only Limited Atonement, he came out of Presbyterianism.  He refuses to even mention Arminius when talking about his belief in Unlimited Atonement.

For me though there is only one point of Calvinism I kinda do agree with and that's actually the one Arminianism doesn't actually disagree with, Total Depravity.  Unfortunately that is the most easy to strawman/misunderstand of the points of Calvinism because of modern people reading the modern connotations of "depravity" onto this term coined when King James was still on the Throne.  It simply refers to the fact that All Have Sinned, that Sin is a disease we've all been infected with, that it's only possible to follow God if God is calling us via The Holy Spirit.  The difference between what Calvinism believes and what I and Arminians believe on this is simply whether God is calling everyone or only a chosen few.  The Arminian Agreement with Calvinism here is why they aren't Pelegians, Pelegius did deny Total Depravity and was one of the first to condemn Universal Salvation by associating it with Origen.  It's actually not that different from Secular Determinism, meaning I was mostly wrong in the past when I insinuated Arminains would be in agreement with Existentialists.

The other three Articles of Remonstrance vs Points of Calvinism are bound up in how Protestantism has conflated Salvation with other things.  

Elect is just a fancy way of saying Chosen, not every reference to Election in the New Testament is about the same choosing, however I view not one of them as being a reference to Salvation.  I already have a post proving that "the many" can refer to everyone so "Many are called but few are Chosen" only makes sense if the Chosen are those who Choose to answer the Call rather then Refuse it.  They choose to be part of The Kingdom on Earth, to be those proclaiming The Gospel that Death will be swallowed up in Victory.

Grace is resistible during this mortal life but eventually those who resist it now will be Saved regardless because God never gives up, just like an Anime protagonist.

Jesu said "all who Persevere to the end will be saved" in the Olivet Discourse, that people started thinking it was about Eternal Salvation is frankly embarrassing to all sides of the argument.  Regardless I come at this form the perspective of someone who's prior Soteriology was Free Grace Eternal Security.  Now however I do believe there is something a Believer obtains when they place their Faith in Christ that can be lost if they renounce that Faith (I struggle to define what exactly that is however), and I also believe that our Rewards are contingent upon obedience, but Salvation was never contingent upon either Faith or Obedience.  You can't lose something that wasn't your responsibility to begin with.

So in a sense I can claim to agree with Arminius over Calvinists on all Five Articles from a Universal Salvation perspective, and I'm not the first.

First of all there is evidence that Arminius himself was at least an Inclusivist.

The General Baptists of the early 17th Century were named that primarily after their positron on Atonement.  John Smyth and Thomas Helwys were full Arminians who in the statements of faith they made proclaimed even a belief that Salvation could be lost.  But the larger General Baptist movement did include some who taught Universal Salvation.

According to Thomas Edwards there were even Universalists in John Goodwin's congregation, the leading Arminian Congregationalist.

Ariel Hessayon wrote a thesis you can find online as a PDF called Winstanley and Baptist Thought documenting how certain ideas of Gerrard Winstanley he got from the General Baptists since he had been one for a time.  Winstanley stopped being a Baptist because he decided to stop preforming the ordinances at all for the same reason as The Quakers.  In fact a lot of the early converts to Quakerism came out of the General Baptists.  General Baptist Henry Denne also anticipated the Quaker Inner Light Doctrine.  (18th Century Universalist James Relly also went on to reject the Earthly Sacraments but for some reason was buried in a Baptist Cemetery.)

Sarah Apetrei has written about Universal Salvation being popular among specifically Baptist Women during the English Revolution in her book The Reformation of The Heart: Gender and Radical Theology in The English Revolution.

Amusingly the Baptist Perpetuity Doctrine is today usually taught among Calvinistic Baptists but it is in fact only the General Baptists who can claim a lineage through the Anabaptists and Waldenses, indeed the Anabaptists and Waldenses seem to be who Arminius himself got his Soteriological ideas from.

Another informative PDF is The Baptist Universalist: Elhanan Winchester by Robin Parry.  Winchester was first converted to Credo-Baptism by a Free Will Baptist then backslide into the Calvinism he was raised in for awhile before finally being lead to Universal Salvation mainly by the precedent for it that existed among the "German Baptists" the Schwarzenau Brethren another group descended from the Anabaptists.

John Wesley is considered a type of Arminian, and there is debate about whether or not he became a Universalist soon before he died.  Soren Kierkegaard also developed a very Free Will centric theology but expressed in his private journals a preference for Universal Salvation.

I have prior posts on this blog responding to arguments that Universal Salvation conflicts with God respecting Free Will.  Some Free Gifts can't be rejected.

Friday, November 3, 2023

Brythonic Christianity was Baptist

They wouldn't have named themselves based on their position on Baptism at the time, but I believe they fit the core requirements, or at least in some regions they did.

My main basis for this is Bede's account of Augustine of Canterbury's interactions with the Briton Christians that already existed on the island.  Bede's Ecclesiastical History of England Volume II Chapter 2.

Bede leads with the timing of Easter as seemingly the first concern but acknowledges other issues existed without identifying all of them.  

Augustine's first meeting with some of them was at a place Bede calls Augustine's Oak which seems to be located just south east of the Severn or Bristol Channel.  This may have specifically been the Pengworm colony who were not actually located in the modern definition of Wales but probably somewhere in or by Somerset.  Some Welsh Genealogies associate them with Glastonbury but that city as we know it didn't properly exist yet.

By the end of that first meeting...
The Britons then confessed that they perceived that it was the true way of righteousness which Augustine taught; but that they could not depart from their ancient customs without the consent and sanction of their people. They therefore desired that a second time a synod might be appointed, at which more of their number should be present.
This pretty clearly establishes what we would today call Congregational Polity, the Ecclesiastical Polity favored by Baptists most Anabaptists and the Pedo-Baptist Puritans who became the Congregationalist denomination. 

Later came what is called the Synod of Chester, (it probably wasn't actually held at the northern Chester it's traditionally identified with). What Bede says Augustine said to them here is what I have become more convinced only makes sense if these Britons were Credo-Baptists every time I read it.
He said to them, "Many things ye do which are contrary to our custom, or rather the custom of the universal Church, and yet, if you will comply with me in these three matters, to wit, to keep Easter at the due time; to fulfil the ministry of Baptism, by which we are born again to God, according to the custom of the holy Roman Apostolic Church; and to join with us in preaching the Word of God to the English nation, we will gladly suffer all the other things you do, though contrary to our customs." They answered that they would do none of those things, nor receive him as their archbishop
Bede is trying to be fairly sympathetic to the Britons here, so given how scandalous refusing to Baptize Infants would be to his readers it makes sense for him to tip toe around explicitly revealing that.  But here is the thing, there were lots of divergences in custom but Augustine had decided only these three things were important enough to risk schism over.  No other disagreement about Baptism could have been that important, it was the importance placed on Infant Baptism by Cyprian of Carthage the prior Augustine and Cyril of Alexandria that made Baptism an issue of such cosmic importance.

Now you might think the date of observing Easter is a pretty superficial thing to make such a big deal out of.  But the Council of Nicaea had ruled that all of the Church should be practicing Easter at the same time so to a representative of the established organized Church it's absolutely something Augustine had to prioritize no matter how much he personally cared.  And it was the only of these three issues addressed by a Canon of an Ecumenical Council so that's why it has the highest priority.  But Infant Baptism had become so important to the Roman Church that it was practically on the same level.

Also according to other sources Constantine of Strathclyde was Baptized in 589 the year he turned 19.  Some try to interpret that as him being "converted" that year but the Archeological evidence shows that Paganism no longer existed in Britain for awhile before he was born in 570. That's a year younger then I would permit Baptism to be performed but I seem to be the minority among Credo-Baptists on that.

In time the Welsh, Cornish and other Britons eventually mostly submitted to Catholic practice, 768 is the date given for when they finally adopted the Roman method for when to observe Easter.  

Among those who already before I wrote this liked to speculate on the Britons/Welsh being Baptists are many Primitive Baptists.  And part of why lies I think in the part of this dispute about refusing to help Evangelize the Anglo-Saxons.  Again Bede was surprisingly sympathetic to the Britons, I sympathize with the Briton perspective on that part of this more here then I do reading later presumably more pro-Welsh accounts, Geoffrey of Monmouth just makes them sound kinda Racist.

I don't believe in the Doctrine of Baptist Perpetuity, I don't think it matters if any modern Baptists can claim an unbroken line of Believers Baptisms going back to The Disciples.  But I do think the reasons Infant Baptism is wrong are obvious enough in The Bible that there have always been some people who figured it out.  And I don't think it's impossible there was some underground survival of pre Augustine Brythonic practice in the more mountainous remote parts of Wales or the Welsh Marshes or other parts of England, and I may make a future post on which 17th Century Baptist Churches could and could not work to imagine as having such a connection.

But I do want to warn people that others talking about the possibility of the Britons being Baptists repeat a lot of the bad history out there about the origins and history of Christianity in Ancient Brittan.  So I want to clarify... I don't think Jesus visited Britain as a child nor do I think Joseph of Arimathea ever came to Britain nor did Simon Zelotes or Aristobolus or Paul or Peter.  I also don't believe the King Lucius legend or that Helena the mother Constantine was a Briton.  

And returning to the main story I devoted this post to, no these events are not directly connected to the Bangor-on-dee massacre, that happened years after Augustine died and the King of Northumbria who did it was a Pagan, that kingdom was Christianized later.

I am open to the theory that the Claudia and Pudens mentioned in 2 Timothy are the same as the couple from Marital who are linked to Britannia but even that is highly speculative.  However we do know that Christianity was established in parts of Britannia by the early 3rd Century because Tertullian said the The Gospel had subdued parts of the Island even Rome hadn't.  Britain had at least 3 Bishops contemporary with the Council of Nicaea but none of them seem to have attended it just like the Bishop of Lyon didn't, there were no Briton Bishops at any of the Ecumenical Councils.

One thing not included in other books or websites on the subject of the Britons possibly having been Baptists is any reference to Arthur.  If this theory is true it means probably the historical King Arthur was a Baptist.  Baptists like to see themselves as a font of modern Democracy, they can exist under a Monarchy and even be loyal to The King but it makes sense they wouldn't want to lead with the Arthur question.

But I'm one of those investigators of the Matter of Brittan who likes to note that the three oldest surviving references to Arthur (Annales Cambriae, the Historia Brittonum and Y Goddodin which isn't as old as it's sometimes claimed to be) don't call him King, one uses the title Dux Bellorium, often translated War Chief. You know who else could be called a Dux Bellorium of Britannia?  Oliver Cromwell, who was a member of a Congregational Polity denomination yet gets looked at as a King in all but name.  But he does have apologists who maintain that he was truly a believer in making Brittan more Democratic.  So what if Arthur was a 6th Century Baptist Cromwell?

Update June 2024: Quatrodeciminism.

Reading what exactly Bede says about how these Britons observed Easter is a bit confusing and hard to interpret, I think something might be lost in Translation or corrupted by scribal error.  But essentially it seems to me like the most logical explanation is that they were doing actual Quatrodeciminism and weren't just called that because of how the Roman Church sometimes called all divergent Easter practices Quatrodeciminism.  Or maybe it began as Quatroodeciminism but evolved after they lost the ability to keep track of when The Jews were observing Passover each year, since Roman and Sub-Roman Britain did not seem to ever have a Jewish population.  

Basically I think "Fourteenth to Twentieth Moon" may have originally meant "Fourteenth to Twentieth of the Moon".  Ezekiel 45:21 describes Passover in a way that sounds like a Seven Day Feast that starts with the 14th. 

This thus lends credibility to the often dismissed claim that Wilfrid of Northumbria was disputing with Quartodecimans at the time of the 664 Synod of Whitby.

The first interesting clue that gives us regarding the History of Brythonic Christianity is that it implies it's origins may lie in Asian Christianity.  I personally would see a neat poetry in the Briton Church being a daughter of Ephesus, (If the Claudia and Pudens of 2 Timothy are the same as the Claudia and Pudens of Marital then that provides one possible connection), alongside the well documented fact that Lyon was a daughter of Smyrna. 

Or the Briton Church could have shared this Smyrna-Lyon lineage, if Christians indeed first came to Britannia during the time of Eleutherius being Bishop of Rome, that's a time when the Christians of Lyon and Vienne faced some local persecution around 177, some of them could have decided to migrate further north and eventually across the channel.

Modern Saturday Sabbath keeping Christians love to assume the Ancient Quatrodecimins must have also kept a Saturday Sabbath, which would then make this interesting to Seventh Day Baptists.  But that is ultimately speculation.

However it could also be that the Sunday during "Fourteenth to Twentieth of the Moon" was when they observed Easter.  So it's still unclear.

Update January 2026: Turns out there is a lot more about Saturday Sabbath Keeping among the Celtic Christians then I originally through, from St Columba to Queen Margaret.

Sunday, April 23, 2023

Congregational Polity has lost it's original meaning.

Ready to Harvest is a YouTube Channel that makes educational videos about differences between Christian Denominations.  And overall I consider them pretty good and would recommend.  But there are a couple doctrinal issues relevant to these differences that I feel he defines incorrectly.

The relevant one today is Congregational Polity, because every time that comes up in one of his videos he defines it as simply meaning Local Autonomy with no reference to the fact that Congregational Polity is supposed to be Democracy.  He's not alone in this, sometimes even Wikipedia seems to do this.  

Ready to Harvest doesn't usually mention his own denominational affiliation in these videos, but it's not that hard to figure out he is an Independent Baptist.  I know in the past some of the Independent Baptist Pastors I've listened to who are a lot less interested in discussing Denominational Disagreements politely will often when they discus the Authority of the Local Pastor sound more Episcopal then the Episcopalians.  They seem to believe the only way to become a Pastor is to be ordained by another Pastor and that his authority over the Congregation is supposed to be absolute, the idea even of removing a pastor because the flock no longer approves of him seems anathema to them.

An emphasis on Local Autonomy was always a part of Congregationalism, but it was intended to help protect the Democracy.  Because it has always been the argument of some that true Direct Democracy can only work on a local level, the wider a scale you apply it to the more you risk situations where what's the majority opinion over all may have no support in certain areas.  There are schools of thought in both Liberalism and Socialism that come to this conclusion in opposition to Centralism,  even Rousseau saw it that way.

The proof that Congregationalism was originally about Democracy lies in simply looking at the English Civil War which happened when English Congregationalism in both it's Pedo-Baptist and Credo-Baptist forms was still young.   Because as I discussed in my Reformation and the Resurgence of Democracy post during that era positions on Clerical Polity and Civil Politics almost always mostly lined up exactly, the Episcopalians were the Monarchists, the Presbyterians were the Parliamentarians and the Congregationalist Puritans and Baptists and Quakers were the ones trying to make England more Democratic.

Sometimes I feel like having the office of Pastor at all is the gateway drug to becoming functionally Episcopalian.  

But it's important to acknowledge that there is a school of thought that suggests that there is a certain kind of Monarchy that is compatible with Democracy, that under the right circumstances a leader with true overwhelming popular support should be allowed to just do what he sees best for the people unchecked until he loses that popular support.  Even John Locke said some things supportive of that idea. In Game of Thrones that's exactly how the Wildings reconcile their rather Anarchist worldview with occasionally having a King Beyond The Wall.  

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to that since I have became a bit of an apologist for Oliver Cromwell who was a Congregationalist.  I also know some of the Founding Fathers wanted the President to be such a popular monarch, some of the lesser known Congregationalist influenced Federalists wanted the President to have even more authority but also elected by direct popular vote.    Hamilton himself however was an Episcopalian at his core so he wanted a President who was King in all but name and definitely not chosen by popular vote.

It goes back to how the word "Tyrant" didn't originally have the inherently negative connotations in Ancient Greece that it has to our ears, Tyrants were Popular rulers and the term's evolution towards being inherently derogatory began with how it was used negatively by the exact same Philosophers who openly didn't like Democracy either like Plato, Aristotle and Xenophon.  This is also partially the reasoning behind support for Dictators among Marxist-Lenninists, I've seen Tankie YouTubers argue that Stalin wanted to step down actually but the people just wouldn't let him.

But the important qualifier is that such a monarch can be removed if they lose the support of the people. Which is these Independent Baptists opposed to any accountability for the Pastor truly lose their Congregational credibility. 

In that prior post I linked to above I also discussed potential documentation that the Church was still Congregational from a certain POV even past Nicaea deep into the 4th Century.  But in that case it's no longer direct democracy or localism but entirely lies in the the popular support certain regional Bishops had like Athanasius of Alexandria, Eustathius of Antioch, Cyril of Jerusalem and the Arab Bishop Moses who was allied with Queen Mavia.  Or maybe Regional isn't the right term, but they at least had authority over an entire City.

The real reason why American Baptists in particular lost sight of the original point of Congregational Polity is indirectly tied to another issue that greatly effected the history of Baptists in America, the issue of Slavery and Abolitionism in the 19th Century.  

Baptists first came to America in the North with other Congregationalists while the Sothern Colonies were founded by Episcopalians with a very Neofeudalist ideology.  When the Southern Baptists broke off from the greater Baptist Community to support Slavery they inevitably also adopted the so called "States Rights" ideology of the Southern Democrats that came with that.  Then once the Fugitive Slave Act came along the Anti-Slavery Northern Baptists had their own reason to emphasize local autonomy seeing that act as a violation of every Local Church's right to help runaway slaves if that's what their Conscience or The Holy Spirit demanded them to do.

But up North there was no conflict between that and Democracy, while down South supporting Slavery did conflict with Democracy because in many regions the majority of people, even the majority of professing Baptists, were the Slaves themselves.  Keeping them Enslaved was fundamentally Undemocratic.

Today the SBC is the largest Baptist Denomination in the world and largest Protestant denomination in the US, and many other Baptist groups broke off from them, including I suspect the lineages of most Independent Baptist Churches inevitably go back to Churches that left the SBC.  I live in Racine WI a city in the most Northern State where when I was growing up 50% of the Independent Baptist Churches had a Pastor with a Southern Accent.

And that's how Baptist Pastors went from being Democrats to being Tyrants that don't even pretend to care about popular support.

Update August: But let's go back to how Rousseau had argued that Direct Democracy can only work on a local level.

In Gary Kates book The Cercel Social, the Girdonins, and the French Revolution, it is documented how some followers of Rousseau during the early stages of the Revolution felt advancements made in Mass Communications had rendered Rousseau's reasoning out of date and now Direct Democracy across large swarths of land was doable. In hindsight the idea that late18th Century Newsletters were sufficient to solve this problem was absurd, but modern mass communication absolutely can solve it thanks to TV and The Internet.

Ready to Harvest has a video on the issue with Multisite Churches and how they supposedly can't qualify as Congregational. It's because of this modern understanding of Congregational Polity that sees it as about localism but still usually with an absolute Monarchial Pastor that makes it a problem. But a true Democratic Assembly of Believers that Assembles via The Internet absolutely can work.

Update September: I want to make clear I do still mostly agree with the Localism principle of Congregationalism. But Independent Baptists in particular have become a bit too extreme with it.

Churches, plural, occurs 37 times in the KJV New Testament but not a single one in a context that supports the idea of a single city having more then one Church. The only Epistle to use Churches rather then The Church at/in/of a given location in it's opening address is Galatians, which was to an entire region Paul visited multiple cities in. The ones that are to Cities are addressed singularly as are the messages to the Seven Churches in Revelation even if in some of those cases their scope might be more then one city.

If you go back to Acts17 most of Paul's success in the area of Thessalonica was actually in the near by city of Berea, I feel like there's no way they aren't included in the original audience of those Epistles. I also have been speculating about the Scope of the Churches associated with Ephesus and Laodicea in Revelation since only they Jesus addresses as being The Church of ____ rather then The Church in _____. Paul met with the Elders of Ephesus at Miletus in Acts 20.

Some have interpreted what's said of the Seven Churches as implying they account for all of the Christians in Asia. Hierapolis and Colossae near Laodicea are known to have had Christian communities before Revelation was written while Magnesia and Tralles between Ephesus and Miletus are documented as having some not to long after via Ignatius.

Update June 5th 2024: Looking into the history more, originally the groups defined by their belief in Local Church Autonomy were called Independents and disagreed with each other about how the Local Church should be organized.

Robert Browne was much more absolute in his calls for Democracy, but also to him Separations from the Church of England was a means to an end not an end in itself, he did want some degree of relationship with the Church of England maintained.  All these people are often called Brownists even when they had significant disagreements with Browne himself.  

Henry Barrowe was more absolute in his separatism but distrusted full Democracy, he wanted basically Local Presbyterianism.  

Barrowe also called Browne a "Renegade" because he felt Browne has betrayed his earlier principals when in actuality Browne was very consistent, the context around him simply changed.  So because of that I consider Robert Browne the Karl Kautsky of Puritanism.

Some American Evangelicals like to say the Pilgrims weren't Puritans, this is is a misnomer that ignores how broad the Puritan label was.  The Plymouth Pilgrims were I would argue the purest Puritans in that they were more like Barrowe on separatism but more like Browne on Democracy being initially lead by John Robinson who ultimately sided with Henry Ainsworth in his dispute with Francis Johnson who was another Local Presbyterian like Barrowe.  The Baptists, especially Particular Baptists also had their origins among followers of John Robinson who agreed with Henry Ainsworth on Democracy.

The Puritans who founded Boston and Connecticut do seem to have been the most actually Brownist.

Congregational as a term for a Polity Position seems to have been coined originally in reference to Browne and Ainsworth's position on Church Governance regardless of how local it was, in contrast to Barrowe.

Saturday, May 7, 2022

The Reformation and the Resurgence of Democracy

It is pretty well known that what we commonly call THE French Revolution was not the last French Revolution.  But what if I told you that, from a certain point of view, it wasn’t the first either?  It can be argued that the French Wars of Religion of the 16th century were a French Revolution that was Protestant rather than Secular in nature. But tragically like many of the later Secular French Revolutions it was betrayed by the very person who won it, Henry Bourbon converting to Catholicism was the Clerical Equivalent of Napoleon being Crowned Emperor. 


This post is a sequel of sorts to Capitalism is Atheistic in Nature, I’m not titling it as a direct parallel because I can't claim Democracy wouldn't exist without Christianity, Ancient Greece definitely had it, and I believe so did Sumerian Kish before Etana.  I mentioned how Capitalism loving New Atheists and YouTube Skeptics love to credit the rise of Capitalism to the Secularism of the Enlightenment, but they also claim credit for Democracy and like the Christian Capitalists of the Eisenhower era try to paint Capitalism and Democracy as inseparable.  But the truth is Capitalism and Democracy are actually incompatible, the only truly Democratic socio-economic system would be Anarcho-Communism, and the only acceptable Representative Democracies are Socialist Republics like Cuba and Vietnam.


That post also acknowledged that some people blame/credit the Protestant Reformation for Capitalism.  The Renaissance and the Enlightenment had both Protestant and Secular sides to them (also a Catholic side but the Catholic Renaissance and Enlightenment was like the New Deal and Huey Long, attempting to appease the people to keep them from running into the arms of the revolutionaries).  And those two sides were not always mutually exclusive, you had Christians who were largely Secular in their mindset or methodology, and non Christians unafraid to draw on Scripture to support their ideas like Thomas Paine in Common Sense.  My thesis in that prior post was that Capitalism is chiefly the product of the Secular side, while here I shall argue that the Return of The Demos was mostly the product of the Reformation.


Part 1: Ecclesiastical Polity


Church Governance was not the initial main point of dispute upon which the Reformation started, but it very quickly became an important topic of debate.  There are primarily three different positions on Church Governance, others do exist like the weird system Methodism has, but they were devised much later and can be argued to be simply fiddling around with these three.


Episcopal Polity: The form used by The Church of The East, The Oriental Orthodox, The Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans (Episcopalian as a name for a denomination usually means Anglicans in the United States), and some Lutheran Churches.


Presbyterian Polity: The form used by the Reformed Churches of the Continent in Switzerland, The Netherlands and parts of Germany as well as the Huguenots and Protestant minorities in France.  But Presbyterian as the name of a denomination refers to the denomination founded by John Knox which became most popular in Scotland, they are today also the largest Christian Church in South Korea.


Congregational Polity:  As the name of a specific denomination refers to a subgroup of the Puritans that included the founders of Boston MA and Oliver Cromwell., but it was also the Polity used by most of the most well known Puritans including the Plymouth Pilgrims, the Baptists and the Quakers.  It also seems to apply to Anabaptist sects like the Mennonites, Hutterites and Amish.  It can be hard to determine with Proto-Protestant groups that no longer exist, but it looks to me like the Waldenses and Taborite were probably Congregational.


Episcopal Polity is basically Clerical Monarchy, Presbyterian Polity is Clerical Oligarchy or Parliamentarianism, and Congregational Polity is Clerical Democracy.  There are of course differences within each form as well, for example what Separates Catholicism from other Episcopalians is viewing The Bishop of Rome as beyond just a Duke(Bishop) Archduke(Archbishop), Prince(Cardinal) or King(Patriarch) but as essentially the Emperor of The Church.


I like to describe my own personal position on Ecclesiastical Polity as Congregationalism with Presbyterian Characteristics.  The reason being that the most well known Congregationalists, those who bear the name and Baptists, seem to be classified this way chiefly for their localism over regionalism but sure seem to have Episcopal Characteristics in how the Local Pastor is viewed.  But even in Presbyterian Denominations it still seems like the weekly Church service is usually one person giving a speech everyone else listens to, which I view as a monarchial tending problem itself. And that criticism itself parallels criticisms of modern Secular Democracies. In many ways I think the Quakers are doing most things better then anyone else.


All three words used to define these forms of Church Government are Biblical, so the first step to seeing who is Biblically Correct is looking into how these words are used in The Bible.


Episcopas is a Greek word that is most literally translated Overseer, but in translations like the KJV more often becomes Bishop, and KJV only Independent Baptists usually use Bishop as the chief Biblical synonym for what they mean by Pastor.  Interestingly the Spartan title of Ephor is derived from the same Greek Root but in a different dialect making it equivalent in it's essential meaning.


Presbyter is a Greek word that is usually translated Elder but I actually feel like Senior conveys the intended meaning better at least in how The New Testament uses it.  Better yet, if I were based on my perspective as a Christian who watches a lot of Anime asked to consult on a Japanese translation of The Bible, I would advise them to translate Presbyter as Senpai and Newtron as Kohai at least in 1 Peter and the Pastoral Epistles.


Neither of these words was meant to refer to an office in any kind of hierarchy, the word “office” is used, but it means a job or function not a position of authority.  I’m a supporter of the House Church Movement, which means I’ve observed how there were no Church buildings till the 3rd Century, the Early Church met in each other’s homes.  Any context where Episcopas seems to be in use in a very singular sense, as in this Church at this time seemingly only has one, it’s probably the owner of the house they’re currently meeting in, the host of the meeting is naturally also responsible for organizing and overseeing it.  But in other contexts like Acts 20 and 1st Peter even many who defend the Episcopalian developments of the 2nd through 4th Centuries admit that all the Presbyters are Overseers in those passages.  However I feel the word Deacon is also used interchangeably with Episcopas, Deacon means a servant.


When 1st Peter is talking about elder and younger believers, I don’t think he means by how long it’s been since they came out of their mother’s womb, but by how long they’ve been a Christian.  Anarchist Philosophers have argued it does not conflict with Anarchism to defer to the authority of someone more experienced than you on a certain subject, and for Christian Anarchists that is how Divine Authority is reconciled, God is older and more experienced than all of us but Scripture actually does depict Him as okay with His decisions being questioned.  This is a form of that, Peter is saying that newer believers should seek guidance from those with more experience, but also stresses how those elders need to take seriously the responsibility that comes with that.


William Tyndale chose not to use the word Church in his English Translation of The New Testament, during this early period some Protestants were concerned the word Church itself was perhaps too inherently owned by the Catholic Church, and it was in fact never a good direct translation of The Greek.  So the Greek word Ekklesia he translated as Congregation, and even in the KJV (which is largely just a revision of Tyndale) and more modern Bibles "Congregation" instead of Church is still used a few times.  Because it is a pretty good literal translation of what Ekklesia means, but not the only way to translate it. 


You see the word Ekklesia was previously a big part of Greek politics and discussions of politics where in those contexts it is often translated Assembly.  The Ekklesia was in Athens and other Greek Democracies the word for the gathering together of the citizenry to discuss an issue and then vote on it, but they did exist in less strictly Democratic states as well since even the most monarchial monarchies often felt the need to consult the people.


The New Testament usage is not unrelated to the Civil Government usage, The Church is the Kingdom of Heaven, and Christ is King but even in The Davidic Monarchy the King still had to involve The People, indeed Ekklesia is also used in the Septuagint to translate equivalent Hebrew Words, as well as in Stephen’s Description of the Mosaic gathering of the people in Acts 7.  And there are hints in the New Testament of the local Ekklesia making decisions democratically.


So the first argument for Congregationalism is that only Congregationalists don't need to massively add to the meaning of the Biblical word they're named for. The word itself was inherently an expression of Democracy in Ancient Greek. Meanwhile Episcopas was not a word Monarchists would use for a Monarch and the closest similar word used in a political context was an example of representative democracy.


Most ancient Oligarchical forms of Government originated as Councils of Elders including pre Solon Athens and Sparta, either the heads of all of the Tribes families, or the heads of the aristocratic ruling families like Parliament's House of Lords.  A Council of Elders is what the Latin in origin word Senate actually means etymologically, and it’s also what the Sanhedrin is in Numbers 11 (Josephus called it the Senate of the Jews).  A council of Elders can play a role in how a Democracy functions, but it shouldn’t be the final and certainly not the only authority.


The Episcopalians’ main argument is that they have a lot of precedent on their side, the Church had been pretty Episcopal for well over a thousand years, you can’t even conceivably blame Constantine for this one. Indeed I don’t think one single big bad is to blame, though Ignatius of Antioch is the earliest Church writer we have who explicitly argued for Episcopalianism.  Ignatius gets referred to as a student of the same “John” who Polycarp was a student of, but the oldest sources on Polycarp being a student of a “John”, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Papias, mention only him and not Ignatius, and Ignatius in the letter he supposedly wrote to Polycarp makes no mention of them having a shared mentor, and neither refers to a “John” as their mentor in any of their own authentic writings.  Papias the oldest source on Polycarp and this John clearly distinguishes him from John The Apostle calling him John the Presbyter. 


Some supporters of Episcopalianism will admit that originally Churches founded by Peter and Paul were Presbyterian (I don’t even think they were that) but claim that "Johannian" Churches in Asia were Episcopalian, basing that largely on Ignatius and Polycarp.  However Polycarp in his one letter refers to himself as one Episcopas among a group. But either way something starting in Asia isn't a good sign since Paul referred to Asia departing from him, and in Revelation 2-7 most of the Churches in this region have some doctrinal problems. I'm not the only person to argue that Episcopal Polity is the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans.


The second century seems to be the key transitional century for the rise of Episcopalianism, some have argued it was a “necessary” development for dealing with the Heretics, needing an authoritative leader to refute and oppose them.  These Heretical sects were often founded by individual Heretics with a bit of a cult of personality around them like Cerinthus, Maricon and Valentinius.  So the "Proto Orthodox" responded to the Heretics by imitating their tactics.


But the second century was also the century over the course of which Platonism supplanted Stoicism as the leading Metaphysical Philosophy of the Greco-Roman World, including the beginning of its influence on Christianity. 


In Stoicism and Early Christianty I argue that the Early Christians were somewhat Stoic, but Stoics who were socially and morally more like the original Stoicism of Zeno rather than later Roman Stoicism.  Zeno was born a Phoenician on Cyprus but he founded his School in Athens.  The original Stoics were people who’s criticism of Athenian Democracy was that it wasn’t Democratic enough, they wanted full Gender Equality and the abolition of Slavery, as well as a Socio-Economic system we would today call Communist. This lines up well with Paul in Galatians 3 who says that in Christ's Ekklesia there is no distinction between Male/Female or Free/Slave or Jew/Gentile (Native/Immigrant).


However Xenophon, Plato and Aristotle were Athenians who HATED Democracy, they idolized many aspects of Sparta (though in The Laws attributed to Plato the Athenian blames Sparta for the spread of the Homosexuality he wanted to stamp out).  Aristotle of course broke with his former teacher on many things, and his books on Politics criticized both of Plato’s constitutions, he praised Sparta but ultimately gave higher praise to Carthage and Solon’s Constitution. It was actually Xenophon who was the most unconditionally in-love with Sparta.


Plato’s Republic gets misconstrued as Communist because it technically has no Private Property, but it is still very much a class based society, there was no discussion of liberating the Slaves.  In The Republic the Monarchy of a "Philosopher King" is Plato's ideal but an Oligarchy of "Guardians" is the acceptable alternative in the absence of a perfect ruler, and so I suspect Platonized Christianity gave rise to both Presbyterianism and Episcopalianism. The Republic's Communalism was only for the elite class of Guardians not the common people which I think may play a role in where Monasticism came from. Plato's Statesman also argued for Monarchy being the ideal.


But a degree of congregationalism might have survived longer then we generally assume. Just look at the history between the first two Ecumenical Councils when the Empire actually had two Arian Emperors. People will often take the the technical fact that both Arian Emperors at least started as Eastern Emperors to imply Arianism was actually popular in the East during this time, but this ignores the history of the Bishoprics of Antioch and Alexandria, where Arian Emperors kept trying to remove the Nicene Bishops like Athanasius of Alexandria, Eustathius of Antioch and Cyril of Jerusalem and replace them with personally appointed Arians yet the people of those Congregations refused to accept them. Same with the Arab Rebellion lead by Queen Mavia agaisnt the Arian Emperor Valens. It even happened in Constantinople itself, the Nicene Paul I of Constantinople always had the popular support of the people, Cosntantius II used violent force to defy them.

Or even later when we look at Bede's account of Augustine of Canterbury's disagreements with the Briton/Welsh clergy at meetings like the Synod of Chester, the Bishops themselves left the meeting open to at least some of Augustine's proposed changes but said they'd have to check with the People first, at it's core that's Congregationalism.

Now remember what I said about Capitalism and Democracy being incompatible?  Part of that is how Socialists believe Democracy should be expanded to the workplace.  Most Corporations are either Monarchies with one absolute CEO or Oligarchies ruled by a Board of Directors representing the wealthy shareholders. Worker owned Co-Opts would be Democracy but they are rare, the current status quo actively opposes allowing such experiments to succeed.

I've talked about the doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers before, but those passages often come hand in hand with the Kingship of all Believers. Christ and God are both King, but they intend to share their Scepter with Us.

Paul Cartledge has a lecture you can watch on YouTube called Ten Things You Really Should Know about Ancient Greek Democracy. One of the points of the lecture is that it seems like in ancient times the word Democracy may have been inherently derogatory and thus rarely if ever used by people who actually supported it, most of the ancient Greek works that have survived are not very pro Democracy, even the writings of the early Stoics are mostly lost. So in that context the word Democracy not being used in The New Testament may itself be evidence that it's one of the few pro Democracy Ancient Greek Texts to survive. And maybe the word Ekklesia could have been the key word in whatever now lost label the ancient Democrats called themselves.

Here are some articles on Congregational Polity, one of them ties in their Dispensationalism which I disagree with.

That last one contains more documentation on what I said above, popular election was playing a role in how Bishop were chosen all through the 4th Century.

Part 2: Applying Ecclesiastical Governance to Civil Governance.


Protestants applying their views of Church Government to Civil Government started before the Reformation proper actually, when we look at the history of Proto-Protestantism, John Ball and his Peasant Revolt was contemporary with John Wycliffe and the Hussite Reformation was soon followed by the Taborite Rebellion.


Then not long after Martin Luther’s message had developed a big following Thomas Munster led an Anarcho-Communist revolt in Germany, then Luther being the evil scumbag he was ordered the Aristocratic Feudal Lords he had converted to his new doctrine to put them down, and there were other Anabaptist revolts as well, but by the end of the 16th century most Anabaptists were absolute Pacifists.


It was Rebels seeking to empower Presbyterianism who were the first to gain success with Zwingli making his preference for Aristocracy clear followed by the Dutch Revolt that started in the 1560s.  And then the English Revolutions of the 16th Century only empowered Parliament (the Presbytery they’d had since long before the Reformation) not the People.  Though more genuinely Congregational rebel groups were involved like Gerrard Winstanley’s Diggers.


Jennifer Tolbert Roberts in Athens On Trial: The Antidemocratic Tradition in Western Thought observes in the chapter on the English Revolution how it was the philosophers of Absolute Monarchy like Thomas Hobbes and Robert Filmer who had studied the Classical Pagan Texts of Greece and Rome and felt they supported their conclusions since it was mostly critics of Athens who's works have survived not Athens' defenders. While it was the most radical of Democrats like the Diggers and Levelers who showed no interest in any secular Classics but based their conclusions on how they interpreted The Bible.

And to verify my point about Democracy and Capitalism not going together originally, the earliest Enclosures of the Commons done in the 17th Century were by the Jacobite Monarchs, James I and Charles I, they were among the grievances that the Presbyterian and Congregational rebels held against them, and then after that Revolution they were put on hold till deep into the Hanover period. England's first even kind of Democratic Revolution was in part a resistance to primitive Capitalism. Robert Filmer not John Locke was the real English Language innovator of the modern Capitalist understanding of Private Property, and he was staunchly anti-Democracy.

Over in the Colonies New England was founded by Congregational Puritans, and Pennsylvania by the even more Congregational Quakers.  But Maryland was founded by Catholics and the South by Royalist Anglican Cavilers loyal to the Jacobite Monarchs.  In a way the American Civil War was a long delayed Sequel to the English Civil War.  Atun Shei Films has a video on Puritanism that acknowledges both their good and bad points.   It was also under the influence of Puritans like Richard Bernard that England under Cromwell ended it's ban on Jews that had stood since the 13th Century.


In the 17th Century English Revolution different people's positions on Ecclesiastical Polity lined up pretty consistently with their positions on Civil Governance, the Catholics and Anglicans were the Monarchists, the Presbyterians were the Parliamentarians and the Puritans and Quakers were the Democrats.


Later on plenty of Protestants would become openly explicit in not wanting the same kind of Governance for The State they do for The Church.  Alexander Hamilton’s Federalist Party was religiously speaking dominated by the New England Congregationalists, a denomination founded on Clerical Localism, so why were they so opposite politically?  Well they still had the Puritan Attitude that the State should regulate Morality, so they wanted a strong Federal Government regulating public morality, and that's what Hamilton and Adams promised them.


But it's also noticeable that in-spite of their voting base being Congregationalist the leadership of the party was largely Episcopalians, Hamilton, James Wilson, Gouverneur Morris, Robert Morris, Rufus King, Charles Cotesworth Pickeny, John Rutledge, Edward Rutledge, George Walton and William Samuel Johnson. And then there's Patrick Henry who was a rare Federalist who had been an opponent of ratifying the Constitution. These are largely the same people Eric Nelson talks about in Royalist Revolution who wanted the office of President to be King in all but name. There were Congregationalists who ultimately sided with the Democratic-Republicans like Samuel Adams, Josiah Bartlett and both representatives of New Hampshire at the Constitutional Convention. John Hancock never joined either Party but his concerns about the Constitution clearly showed Democratic-Republican leanings.


Modern Evangelical Dominionists will talk about how the phrase “Separation of Church and State” comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a Pastor, and say it explains how it's there to protect the Church from the State not the other way around.  The historical context they are leaving out is that this was a Baptist Pastor, and back then Baptists were very much still a minority religion even in the State they had founded, and the Boston Congregationalists especially hated the Baptists remembering Roger Williams as an Apostate from their Church.  Jefferson was promising a minority religion protection from the majority religion in bed with the then ruling Party.


I don’t feel like retreading all the Roger Williams territory here, I recommend John M. Barry’s book Roger Williams and The Creation of The American Mind.


Roger Williams and John Clarke weren't the only association the Baptists had with the fight for Freedom of Religion, it goes back to the founders of the General Baptists John Smyth and Thomas Helwys, and after them Richard Overton of the Levellers during the English Revolution and John Leland contemporary with the American Revolution.  Nor are they the only association the Baptists have with the Abolitionist movement, Elhanan Winchester was a prominent early American Abolitionist as was Morgan John Rhys, Slavery in the British Empire was finally outlawed as the result of a Slave Rebellion in Jamaica lead by Baptists called the Baptist War, and Charles Spurgeon also strongly opposed Slavery, and George Washington Williams is also worth mentioning as are Amos Tuck and Edwin Hurlbut. The Randalite Free Will Baptists were also known for their opposition to Slavery Then in more modern times the PNBC was important to the Civil Rights Movement.  The Southern Baptists were originally very much the atypical Baptists, breaking off from the the oldest American Baptist Church (the one founded by Williams and Clarke) because it opposed Slavery, it was a long complicated history that made them the largest Protestant Church in the U.S.  And even today while Southern Baptists are America's largest single Baptist Denomination they are still less then 50% of the total.


However the Quakers became even more virulent abolitionists.


But let’s go back to the discussion of France.  John Calvin himself made a Christian argument for Regicide during the French Wars of Religion.  During the French Enlightenment, of the key Philosophs who died before The Revolution broke out, the only one who was a Christian was Rousseau who was raised Calvinist went Catholic for a while but then returned to Calvinism. He was also the only one who was a Communist rather than a Liberal.  He is a key transitional figure in the Secularization of Communism as unlike prior Christian Communists his argument for it was Secular.  Montesquieu was however not as hostile to religion as Voltaire and did use The Bible in his writings, though exactly how has been misrepresented by certain Evangelicals.


The French Revolution was the beginning of the Secularization of both Democracy and Communism, and at the same time the final stage of them being seemingly separated from each other.


France was the first place where certain ideas that began as inherently Protestant were slowly able to be considered by Catholics, and eventually non Christians. Partly this is because of the French perspective that people like Calvin provided to the Reformed Tradition from the beginning. Partly it's because Rousseau was good at making his ideas sound appealing to those who don't share his Faith. And partly it's because a lot of the Philosophs and early French Revolutionary leaders were kind of Anglophiles.


Contrary to popular stereotypes about the French Revolution, it was initially lead more by Christians (mostly Catholics but some Protestants) some were even clergy, the Atheists and Deists were present from the start but it took them years to take over. These Christians include Emmanuel Joseph Sieyes who authored the Revolution's original Declaration of Independence, so too probably were his allies Baily and Lafayette. Jacques Necker and other Calvinists from Geneva. Jean-Paul Rabaut Saint-Etienne who authored France's first Edict of Toleration. Claude Fauchet who originally lead the Cercel Social where he first argued for a Rousseau inspired Democratic reorganization of the Gallican Church. Henri Gregoire, Antoine-Adrien Lamourette, Pierre Claude Froncois Dauno and Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Dobel who were important supporters of the Civil Constitution of The Clergy. And Jacques Roux who was the leader of the actual Communists of the Revolution (the Jacobins were all Classical Liberals) the Enrages.


Same was true for the English Sympathizers of The Revolution which include Reverend Richard Price, the Christian Communist Thomas Spence and the founders of modern Unitarianism Gilbert Wakefield and Joseph Priestley.


There is a neat video on YouTube about how Rousseau's radical Democracy came from the local largely informalized Democratic values of his hometown of Geneva.

The Roots of Modern Democracy

Well the Geneva that Rousseau grew up in was a product of Calvin. The Regional Synods we usually associate with Presbyterianism came from others not Calvin himself, Calvin organized a local Church Government for the city of Geneva, in the grand scheme of things he may well have been more Congregationalist then people assume.