Friday, August 1, 2014

The Bible does not condemn Homosexuality: Corinthians and Timothy

Arsenokoites (Strong # 733) and Malakos (Strong # 3120)

Here is the KJV rendering of 1 Corinthians 6:9&10 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

How to translate two words that appear in the Greek of this passage is the final issue of my dissertation. The word rendered "effeminate" is Malakos. Malakos is used three other times in the Bible, but in none of those occasions as a title of some specific sin or sinners as it clearly is here, and they're certainly not sexual in nature. On those three (twice in Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25) occasions the KJV renders it "soft". Both passages Jesus is using it to describe people in royal courts who live decadent lifestyles.

The context here appears to be sexual in nature, following adulterers, but it can’t be known for certain, these two words, if they're sexual, end the sexual section, and are followed by economic sins. Instances of the use of Malakos in earlier secular literature are: Herodotus: Histories 7.153 & 13.51; Aristophanes: Wasps 1455, Plutus 488; Aristotle: Nichomachean Ethics 1150a:33; Plato: Republic 556c. Where it can have sexual connotations, but not homosexual. Aristotle says specifically that "Malakos" refers to unrestraint in respect to bodily pleasures. This kind of fits with Jesus linking it to decadence.  The Aristotle work in question does discus homosexual acts, but doesn't link Malakos to them.  A little after Paul's time Plutarch in Dialouge on Love uses Malokos of a young boy being submissive in his Heterosexual relationship with an older Widow.

But even the extent to which "effeminate" could be accurate, what calling a male "effeminate" meant in Ancient Greeco-Roman culture was not exactly the same as today. For one thing, in Rome particularly, a man behaving effeminately for the sake of attracting a sexual partner was probably seeking women, we see this with Charicles in the Erotes of Pseudo-Lucian, Charicles was also quite Homophobic. Back then men looked down on "girly men" like they do today, and that tended to include those men who had homosexual inclinations. And I know it's trendy to act like women being attracted to feminine looking men is some new fad inflicted on the modern world by Pop Boy Bands and Twilight, but it's really not. Adonis was a pretty boy in Greek mythology, not a muscular hairy perfect manifestation of masculinity like people want to in-part on the word today.

Traits the ancient Greeco-Romans considered "effeminate" included such behavior as bathing frequently, shaving, frequent dancing or laughing, wearing cologne, eating too much or wearing fine undergarments.  Again, all this backs up how Jesus linked Malakos to decadence.

If Paul had meant Crossdressers as people tend to take him to mean now days, he'd have probably used androgynes like Philo did.

Arsenokoites is what’s rendered abusers of themselves with mankind. It appears elsewhere in scripture only once, another writing of Paul. 1 Timothy 1:10 “For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” is the KJV rendering. The italics is how the word in question is rendered.  More modern Bible translations often render this word simply Homosexuals, Homosexual offenders, practicing homosexuals, or Sodomites.

In this case the KJV is less indisputably about simply Homosexuality then most more modern ones. Because it uses words like "Abusers" or "Defilers". Yes I know from the current standard conservative POV homosexuality is itself an Abuse or a Defileing, but that's not how you build doctrine.  It's interesting that King James himself was Bisexual, but disapproved of "buggery", a British slang term for Anal intercourse.  (Those who deny King James was in any way Queer base their evidence solely on his love for his wife and that he disapproved of "buggery".)

The complication with this word is that Paul appears to have coined it himself. These two verses are probably the oldest examples of it being used at all. There were a number of Greek words for male-male Homosexual behavior Paul could have used, like erastês and erômenos, androkoitēs, paiderastia, catamite, arrenomixia, androbateo, androbates, arrenomanes, maiandro or ganymede.

A popular form of the traditional view is that Malakos means the passive partner and Arsenokotis the active partner.  However if that was Paul's intent he's have used erastês and erômenos.  But Kinaidos also existed as amore explicitly derogatory way of referring to a passive male homosexual.

Arsenokoites is a compound word, combining Arsen (which was already mentioned in the study on Romans 1), and the other is Koite (Strong # 2845) which literally means bed but can be an idiom for sex.  Compound words are not as easy to decipher as they look.   For example Lady-killer doesn't mean “Lady who kills” or “Killer of ladies”.

One interpretation is offered by Paul R. Johnson for “Second Stone” magazine titled “A New Look at Arsenokoitais” (1994 January/February issue). In this article he wrote:

“The Greek compound term arseno-koitais literally means ‘the male who has many beds’. The word arsen means ‘male’, the adjective o means ‘the’, and the term koitais is defined as ‘many beds’. Thus, the entire phrase means a male with multiple bed-partners; a promiscuous man. Everywhere that the word koitais is used in the plural in the Bible denotes promiscuity. However, when the same word is used in the singular form, the Bible gives approval because the singular denotes monogamy.”

Problem is I also disagree that The Bible only approves of absolute Monagamy.  And it's also in plural here because all the words listed are. 

A common theory is that it derives from the Septuagint renderings of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Where Zakar is translated Arsen and Mishkab is rendered Koite, and they are used right next to each other. I tend to reject the assumption that NT authors used the Septuagint, but it could likely have looked that way in any Greek rendering, including if Paul constructed one himself.  It is possible that Paul might have been referring to the same thing he addressed before in Romans, where he used the word Arsen. This view is the only option available really that uses Scripture to interpret Scripture. But the issue then is, what was Leviticus actually referring to? I addressed that (more then once) and also Romans 1.

Some early Christian writings turn the word into a verb as arsenokoitia. None of the early uses of the word are apparently using it to mean homosexuals. And some contradict it, like John the Faster, Patriarch of Constantinople, around A.D. 575.

“One must also ask about the perplexing, beguiling , and shadowy sin of incest, of which there are not just one or two varieties but a great many very different ones. One type is committed with two sisters of the same father or mother (or both). [Jacob with Leah and Rachel]
Another involves a cousin; another the daughter of a cousin; another the wife of one's son; another the wife of one's brother. It is one thing with a mother-in-law or the sister of a mother-in-law, another with a stepmother or a father's concubine.
Some even do it with their own mothers, and others with foster sisters or goddaughters. In fact, many men even commit the sin of arsenokoitia with their wives.”
Seems not to imply inherently Homosexual. It's confusing frankly cause it isn't even clear if he's left the subject of Incest when he uses this word. I have my own separate study on incest restrictions in The Bible, which does not exactly agree with this commentary on the subject.

There was also found an old inscription in a house in Greece somewhere that says "Beware a male arsenokoite". So again, further evidence it was a sin women could commit with men as well as men could, in fact it sounds like one being male is what's unusual in this example..

I believe the word is probably another reference to Temple Prostitution/sacred-marriage, or at most specifically Anal intercourse. Either way it’s certainly not a blanket condemnation of Homosexuality as a whole.

Around the year 2 B.C. Strabo (VIII,6,20) in his geographic/historical description of the town of Corinth wrote some remarks concerning female temple servants in the temple of Aphrodite in Corinth, which perhaps should be dated somewhere in the period 700-400 B.C.:[See Introduction in [Baladié]. The fragment is in Geographika VIII,6,20]

“The temple of Aphrodite was so rich that it employed more than a thousand hetairas,[The Greek εταίρα (hetaira) means literally: female companion, female mate.] whom both men and women had given to the goddess. Many people visisted the town on account of them, and thus these hetairas contributed to the riches of the town: for the ship captains frivolously spent their money there, hence the saying: ‘The voyage to Corinth is not for every man’. (The story goes of a hetaira being reproached by a woman for not loving her job and not touching wool,[One of the main tasks of these women was the processing of wool (source: [Radt,6], p. 484)] and answering her: ‘However you may behold me, yet in this short time I have already taken down three pieces’.)”
[The Greek text has here a blue pun which is hardly translatable. ιστός means: 1) (the standing posts of a) weaving loom (n.b.: ancient Greece initially knew the vertical loom); 2) mast; 3) (metonym.) woven tissue. καθει̃λον ιστους means then, firstly: taking down the woven web from the loom; secondly: lowering the mast. Thirdly the hint on ‘lowering’ some other kind of ‘mast’. (Sources: Greek dictionary, [Baladië], [Radt,2], [Radt,6].)]

The text in more than one way hints at the sexual business of those ladies. Remarks elsewhere of Strabo (XII,3,36: “women earning money with their bodies”) as well as Athenaeus (XIII,574: “in the lovely beds picking the fruits of the mildest bloom”) concerning this temple describe this character even more graphic.

In 464 B.C., a man named Xenophon, a citizen of Corinth who was an acclaimed runner and winner of pentathlon at the Olympic Games, dedicated one hundred young girls to the temple of the goddess as a sign of thanksgiving. We know this because of a hymn which Pindar was commissioned to write (fragment 122 Snell), celebrating "the very welcoming girls, servants of Peïtho and luxurious Corinth".[(French) Trans. Jean-Paul Savignac for les éditions La Différence, 1990.]

So Cornith was another ancient center of Temple Prostitution. None of these references confirm Males being used in the same purpose as we know happened with the Ancient Canaanites, but it still could have been likely. But again, maybe it's wrong even to assume the word Arsenokoitis refereed to men, though ending with an "s" in Greek is usually Grammatically Masculine, though some exceptions exist. Or it could be he's talking about the Men who are the clients of the Temple Prostitutes, or maybe both.

You may be thinking, "if you're saying it's so difficult to even know what this word means doesn't that hurt the idea of The Bible being inspired/preserved? Why would the Holy Spirit use a word He knew would become obscure?"  Well that's why I somewhat support the theory of connecting it to Leviticus 18:22, that's the only approach that qualifies as using Scripture to Interpret Scripture, everything I've pointed out just helps back up my view that to Paul Leviticus 18:22 meant the same thing I argued it meant.

But also we're not supposed to build Doctrine on Vice Lists (not moral doctrine), vice lists just say, so and so are sinners, but once your saved you're not longer considered whatever type of sinner you are, your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, which means at the White Throne we're judged based on Christ's works not our own.  You may lose your rewards or inheritance from continuing in those sins, but not your Salvation.  So for that reason it doesn't matter too much how certain we are what these verses refer to.

I have read some attempts to justify why Paul needed to invent a word rather then just use ones that already existed while maintaining it's all Homosexual behavior.  Two of them are exact opposites.

One argued that the other terms are to broad (My whole objection to saying it condemns all same-sex affection is that that is too broad).  Many examples they say are about any non reproductive sex particularly Anal, but don't these same Christians also think of those as sins?

In arguing that Androkoites is too broad they assert "Andros can also mean Mankind/Humanity", that is plainly wrong, Anthropos is the Greek for Mankind/Humanity, Andros is frequently clearly used as the counterpart to Gune which means woman/wife.  The Bible never uses Andros properly but it does use Anthropos in contexts clearly not meant to exclude women.  To this day, Misandry refer to hating males and Miantrobe to one who hates humanity.  Even so that doesn't change that no idiot would think a condemnation of Androkoites was any sex with a human being.

But another argued that Androkoites is too specific.  That Andros means "adult male" and thus Androkoites excludes Pedastry.  Why wouldn't Paul just use more then one word and list Pedastry as a separate sin?

But if the motive for constructing Arsenokoites to to be broad in it's same-sex condemnation, then it means something that he still constructed a word that cannot include Lesbianism.  Maleness is quite inherent in it, if it was a sin that could be committed by a woman or with a woman, or that a woman could be the victim of (which is implied by some Extra-Biblical uses of it) they'd have to do it with or to a male, or be something a male does to or with them.

If The Holy Spirit wanted to create a Greek term equivalent to our Homosexual, the Homo part does in fact come from Koine Greek, Homios, which means "the same" or "likewise".  If Paul had constructed Homiokoites no one would have thought any other sameness was being forbidden to have sex with, most sex was between people of the same nation/tribe back then since the world wasn't as globalized yet, the exceptions were often scandalous.  And Christians are advised to only have relations with people of the same faith.

To others the comparison to androkoites is key.  If Androkoites means male same-sex acts, and Arsen is basically a synonym of Andros, then how can Arsenokoites mean something different?

Again constructing composite words is complicated, sometimes the entire reason when creating a new one to replace one word in an existing one with a synonym is to prevent confusion when something different is very much your intent.  Both words likely have something to do with males and beds/sex, but putting those two nouns together could have lots of meanings, and one meaning "male homosexual" was already covered.

Mostly they argue for it drawing on Levitcus to prove their point.  But that presumes what Leviticus is about is being interpreted by them correctly.  And to me how Arsneokoites was used by many post Paul authors shows the word certainly could have been about ritual anal sex, which is what I argued Leviticus 18:22 is about.

Some of the earliest extra-Biblical uses of the word are in Vice lists that are not of Sexual sins but of economic or exploitative sins.  In the second century Apocryphal Acts of John, John condemns a rich man of Ephesus.
You who delight in gold and ivory and jewels, do you see your loved (possessions) when night comes on? And you who give way to soft clothing, and then depart from life, will these things be useful in the place where you are going? And let the murderer know that the punishment he has earned awaits him in double measure after he leaves this (world). So also the poisoner, sorcerer, robber, swindler, and arsenokoités, the thief and all of this band. ...So, men of Ephesus, change your ways; for you know this also, that kings, rulers, tyrants, boasters, and warmongers shall go naked from this world and come to eternal misery and torment (section 36)
Sexual sins are denounced earlier in section 35, effectively a different list.

The two times Paul uses it are also next to Sins of an economic or exploitative nature, next to thieves in Corinthians and Manstealers in Timothy.  It could be some form of Sex-Slavery is in mind.  Which could overlap with forms of Temple Prostitution, since as I already showed some women were sold to Sex Goddess temples without their own consent.

It's also used in a similar fashion in the Jewish Sibylline Oracle 2.70-77.10.  This reference could work against the assumption Paul invented it, it's date of origin in uncertain but it's not Christian in origin, rather Hellenistic Judaism.  However most scholars agree it's under gone some Christian redaction.
Do not steal seeds. Whoever takes for himself is accursed (to generations of generations, to the scattering of life.
Do not arsenokoitein, do not betray information, do not murder.) Give one who has labored his wage. Do not oppress a poor man. Take heed of your speech. Keep a secret matter in your heart. (Make provision for orphans and widows and those in need.)
Do not be willing to act unjustly, and therefore do not give leave to one who is acting unjustly.
Nothing here is a sexual sin except disputably arsenokoitein  Another vice list in the same book is primarily about Sexual sins, 2.279-82.

Theophilus of Antioch in his treatise addressed to Autolychus, has a vice list that begins with sexual sins, then lists three economic or exploitative sins, then Arsenokoites, then more sins that are not sexual.  He does later in the same work have another list listing it next to Sexual sins, but also next to  greed and idolatry.

Hippolytus of Rome used it in Refutation of All Heresies 5.26.22-23.  Hippolytus claims to be passing along a Gnostic myth about the seduction of Eve and Adam by the evil being Naas. Naas came to Eve, deceived her, and committed adultery with her. He then came to Adam and "possessed him like a boy (slave)." This is how, according to the myth, moicheia (adultery) and arsenokoitia came into the world.  The language about Naas's treatment of Adam, which can be read "taking or possessing him like a slave," could connote exploitation and even rape. The context allows a reading of arsenokoitia to imply the unjust and coercive use of another person sexually.

The third-century writer Bardesanes is quoted in Eusebius's Preparation for the Gospel 6.1 0.2 5.  Bardesanes is remarking that the peoples who live east of the Euphrates River take the charge of arsenokoitia very seriously: "From the Euphrates River all the way to the ocean in the East, a man who is derided as a murderer or thief will not be the least bit angry; but if he is derided as an arsenokoités, he will defend himself to the point of murder. [Among the Greeks, wise men who have lovers (ermenous echontes, males whom they love; "favorites") are not condemned]"

The text seems to have gone through some corruption in transmission. The sentence in brackets does not occur in the Syriac fragments of Bardesanes's text or in the other ancient authors who seem to know Bardesanes's account, leading Jacoby, the editor of the Greek fragments, to suggest that Eusebius himself supplied the comment.  (Ibid.; see also Die Pseudoklementinen II Rekognitionen in Rufius Übersetzung, rev. 1 ed. Bernard Rehm, earlier ed. Georg Strecker (Berlin: Akademie, 1994), , 284-87.)  Thus Eusebius's text would provide evidence only that he or other post-Constantine Christian scribes wanted to equate arsenokoités with Homosexuality.

Hippolytus and Eusebius are the oldest references that even come close to using it in a way that backs up viewing it as Homosexuality.  Hippolytus is recounting a Gnostic myth in a work dedicated to condemning the Gnostics, Augustinian sexual morality comes from Augustine's Gnostic background.  And Eusebius was a leader in the post Constantine agenda to reconcile Christianity with socially conservative Roman culture.

On the subject of the last issue I addressed at the end of the Romans study. Reading on in 1 Corinthians 6 it's clear that there where Christians saved out of every Sin being listed here.

And that is the end of my dissertation, I hope I have succeeded in opening minds and increasing knowledge of God’s Word.

36 comments:

  1. Pauls hand the man over to satan is a test
    He judges and claims his spirit is with them and that satan can destroy the flesh sinful nature and that satan can save the spirit of man
    Then he rebukes them for boasting saying dont you know a little yeast works through the whole dough points to the usual means of atonement the pascol lamb
    The after judging that one man who was believer in Jesus who shall not be judged rebuies them saying they have altogether failed for they are judging eachother for sin obviously lol this whole thing is admitted as a test in 2 cor
    Where ge admits he worte the other gospel they werw putting up with well enough concluding nothing lacking just for the sake of the apostles which is mistranslated as having him say hes not in the least inferior to the super apostles
    This was the reason for the test they were follwing the apostles wrongly in factions he tells the to set up as judges those they had already thrown out and despised with contempt IF they were going to continue judging each other about things pertaining to this life i.e sex matters etc

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  2. On judgement for the prince if this world is now judged

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  3. I have a post on lop forum lunatic outpost lol
    In the relgion section if that forum
    Cone i would love to see your thinking on this ive been looking at the orginal greek in certain jey areas of the nt translation
    Papal antichrist messed with it on things pertaining to judgment and persecution so he could justify persecution is my findings.

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  4. Paul said his spirit was with them everywhere lol
    Because they were treating him like God!
    As they were apollos and cephas

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  5. Fir instance in peters letter on persecution the word in greek is only meaning judgment away from and not at the house of God
    The horn persecutes the saints when Judgment is given to the saints when jesus returns and they inherit the kingdom in full - daniel.

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  6. As for the anti christ
    Jesus said do not let any man decieve you
    For MANY shall come IN MY NAME
    Saying ' i am THE christ' ( kjv is wrong the orginal greek has THE)
    And they shall decieve MANY

    THIS RELATES TO THE MANY SHALL SAY ON THAT DAY
    LORD LORD DIDNT WE DO MANY GREAT MIRACLES IN YOUR NAME
    BUT I SHALL SAY AWAY FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS
    I NEVER KNEW YOU
    JESUS WOULD NEVER CALL MIRACLES DONE IN HIS NAME WORKS OF LAWLESSNESS
    PROVING THE MANY WERE FOLLOWING A FALSE JESUS A FALSE CHRIST
    AND THEIR MIRACLES WERE FALSE MIRACLES BECAUSE OF THIS
    THIS RELATES TO THE MANY FALSE PROPHETS AND FALSE CHRIST DOING GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS TO DECIEVE EVEN THE ELECT IF POSSIBLE

    ALL WILL BE THOSE MANY FOLLOWING THE FALSE CHRIST FALSE JESUS
    FALSE GOSPEL PREACHED BY THE MANY MEN WHO COME IN JESUS NAME BUT WHO SAY THEY ARE "THE" CHRIST ,

    HERE IS PROVEN THE PAPACY ARE THE MANY JESUS WARNED OF
    FOR THEY COME IN JESUS NAME YET SAYING THEY ARE "THE " very CHRIST
    Pope Pius X declared, “The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh.

    The ruled of papal ex cathedra means the above is to every pope recealing the whole papacy to be the fulfilment of the lawless one the anti christ, the beast king the 8 th king ; of the beast kingdom with the city riding it ( vatican)
    Drunk with the blood of the saints ( inquisitions )

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  7. The papacy are certainly not anointed but anti anointed for they are teaching doctrines of demons they forbid marriage and command abstinence from foods
    Enforced celibacy of fake relgious positions in false church and commanding thelaity to abstain on fake feast days lent and ever Friday ( papal friday laws and feast day food laws)

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  8. So all " church father" pope followers are not to be trusted in their ancient opinions on any matters

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  9. We are commanded to remind eachother of these things in order to be a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

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  10. The " church" never reminds of those things

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  11. I am making an extreme critique of all the church for affect
    Because they are not being good soldiers of Jesus christ
    And many so called leaders of virtually every single denomination have publicly decalared their unity with the mother of harlots roman catholicism

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  12. The papacy teach another christ born of a women not born of flesh but born without sin, so they preach a false ; another Jesud christ not able to come in the flesh and take on our flesh weaknesses
    And so the papacy qaulify the biblical defintion of anti christ
    Denying jesus christ came in the flesh ; craftilly and very subtly like the serpent
    Via their demonic dogma false christology and teachings
    With high sounding words of " theology"

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  13. Paul could not judge the sins of a believer in Jesus christ
    For Jesus forgave all sins abd said he who believes in him shall not be judged and also he commanded we do not judge
    Paul was therefore testing the cornithians for they yeast of hypocrisy

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  14. Paul was sarcastically rebuking their satanic judging of eachother by posing as a pharaseee working for the accuser of the brethren the one now stood concmened the prince of this word satan, as if not satisfied with their asking him to judge as if they should have judged and thrown out the man from amongst them as if under law of moses commands in regard to sins of the believer showing they were defaruding their brothers of christs forgivness as was their habit

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  15. As for judgment the Prince of this world* now stands condemed

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  16. We are dead to the law entire
    All of it through christ jesus death

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  17. After judging the deeds of the believer who commited incest
    He rebukes the corinthians for judging the deeds of their fellow believers
    Do you not know a little yeast works through the whole batch?
    Our pascal lamb has been sacrificed ( for our sins)

    Paul ref Jesus saying
    Beware the yeast of the pharassees which is hypocrisy
    And ref the true means of God dealing with the sin of the believer who commited incest

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    1. In open satanic defience for effect
      He judges the deed then rebukes them for judging the deeds
      Hypocrasy is evident in every way
      Even soemone is still an idiot in the word knows it is not the knowledge
      And we have made this clear to you in every way

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    2. We are to judge?
      Satan destroyed the flesh?
      Satan can save the spirit?
      Jesus works with satan?
      Pauls spirit is everywhere?

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  18. By the way i have found nonody in agreement with the truth on this matter which is staggering just like them accepting and being decieved by the anti christ virtually none very few understand the truth and approve of that doctrines of demons lying blasphemous beast
    In regards to the Corinthians test
    I have found not one agrees
    No one except the spirit of truth so Jesus christ and God the father.

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  19. Ref to the test about the believer and incest in 1 cor
    Talked of in 2 cor
    Also the other gospel other Jesus is a ref also

    Now we pray to God that you may not do anything wrong, not so that we may appear to have passed the test, but so that you may do what is right even if we may appear to have failed the test
    https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/13-7.htm

    Paul knew it could make some think him false

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  20. What they were constantly doing wrong was throwing the beleivers out despising them treating them with contempt for publicly known sins while they them selves habitually sinned because of the law of sin in flesh anyway
    Hypocrites!

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  21. When you see and are Understanding this part of pauls teaching overwhelmingly shows the grace of God in full

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  22. If we ( believers justified and forgiven our sins by grace through faith in Jesus christ the son of God's name) say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is NOT IN US.

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  23. The life i live in the flesh ( the flesh sinful flesh)
    I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me

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  24. We have sin for we are still in the flesh our bodies not fully reddemed until the day of redemption new bodies! Changing our low bodies when christ comes to be like unto his glorious ressurection body
    So we have sin but are not counted as sinners by faith in Jesus
    The spirit of truth convicts the workd in regard to sin indeed
    For they do not beleive in me
    But we do believe in him and so have recieved forgiveness of our sins in his name as all the law and the prophets say

    Yet God is not counting sins against them fir he was in christ not counting mens sins against and would all be saved by their coming to acknowlegdment of the truth
    Jesus christ is the truth so coming acknwoeldging the truth is coming to faith in Jesus the son in order to recieve the forgivness of sins in his name
    As all the law and the prohets say
    Thismsinwhy the good news must be preached
    For it is by beleiving in his name we are saved
    Not by not believing

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  25. He who believes shall not be judged

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  26. If with the law of God in our inner man we delight but with the flesh we serve the law of sin, therefore there is NOW no condemnation for those in christ Jesus.

    How then could we lose our inheritance ( eternal life) or lose our rewards, if because of the law of sin flesh we sin, THEREFORE THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE IN CHRIST JESUS?

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  27. And if by knowing the truth we will be set free from sin
    Why does the truth tell us we serve the law of sin with the flesh therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in chrisit Jesus.
    If after that we lose inheritance and rewards for continuing to sin?

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  28. And what kind of freedom do we get by continually struggling with sin?
    That not freedom at all its a prison!

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  29. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  30. The only answer to you shall know the truth and the truth SHALL set you free

    must be forget about sin as if dead to sin.

    live by faith and if during living your consciene says you are doing something sinful just say well the truth is that with the flesh i serve the law of sin but theres no condemnation for me because i believe in Jesus .

    So you then confess to God say that you sinned and he is just to forgive you your sins because you were already forgiven you sins by believing passed tense Jesus is the son of God and are cleansed the blood of Jesus passed tense and efficacy forever from all unrightiounsess

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  31. Eunuchs means
    From
    Eunu meaning bed and echo to have

    Bed have
    Or having a bed

    Eunuchs in law could not be part of the assembly of israel

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  32. [quote='LoP Guest' pid='1791409' dateline='1548116091']
    Born a eunuch

    from euné (a bed) and echó ( to have)


    Strong's Concordance
    echó: to have, hold
    Original Word: ἔχω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: echó
    Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
    Definition: to have, hold
    Usage: I have, hold, possess
    Dead to the law alive to God through Christ


    In the Old Testament:

    No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD.
     — Deuteronomy 23:1 (ESV


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  33. Because you wrote of beds

    The Greek compound term arseno-koitais literally means ‘the male who has many beds’. The word arsen means ‘male’, the adjective o means ‘the’, and the term koitais is defined as ‘many beds’. T

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  34. First of: Sorry for my bad english, I am not a native speaker.
    a) "To them Paul clearly says "and likewise also", that means they're doing the same thing as in being same-sex relations. But the concept of orientation is a modern 19th century invention." it seems to me that you are conflating same sex orientation and same-sex actions with each other. Paul saying "likewise" here and thereby meaning "having sex with the same sex as the women do" only requires him to have a concept of different male and female and of males and males having sex, not of an orientation behind that. You will find that concept in many writings before the 19th Century. b) The "likewise" was interpreted that way long before the 19th century which would be impossible, if something only present since the 19th century was nessecary for that interpretation. c) And I think that interpreting this as only refering to being the passive part in anal sex doesn't really make any sense if Paul is not quoting someone else here. It makes sense within the roman world where this is about power dynamics, but I am pretty sure for Paul both partners would be guilty of sin here, if he saw sin with the passive part. I also don't think there is that much evidence that women were thought of badly in antiquity for being the passive partner in anal sex, I think this is specifically about males.
    d) The whole "male" "female" thing here with the word "thelos" and so on is actually fascinating but I believe it rather shows that Paul is making a reference to scripture here, probably quoting Genesis 1,27 where you have actually very rare hebrew words, also actually not meaning "man" and "woman" but "male" and "female" and being translated in the Septuagint with the same words Paul uses in Romans 1. This passage is probably also quoted in Galatians 3,28. Every use of these two words in the New Testament is either certainly or probably a scriptural quotation, here the reference point (they are also very rare in greek writings of the time in general, so making this a quotation by Paul doesn't really explain their use, only making them a reference to scripture really makes that probable)
    e) And the whole passage just being Paul quoting someone else seems kind of far-fetched to me, as there is really no indication in the text that ultimately doesn't believe it's true or that he is giving someone else's opinion. The little clues you give for that are so few that you will find as much in many Pauline passages.
    f) And the Gentiles worhsipping apsects of natures, sometimes even animal-human-mixture gods is still true at Paul's time although the idea of one god behind that can be found around B.C. in the roman world. The general point of the passage is neither false nor does it run against Paul's argument, it only would if he wanted to make the point that only Jews are terrible or that actually everyone is great.

    g) The word "lambano" mostly translated here with "receive" doesn't really have the implications you are talking about within the other pauline writings or NT-use of it in general. It is rather always used with relation to receiving salvation or punishment for sin, which is exactly how people usually read it in this passage. (Lk 6,34 is different, bu Jesus making these kinds of parables to talk about salvation and punishment is probably why the word adapted mostly this meaning in early christian culture). h) Male temple prostitution is also at least not a big thing in antiquity and the word can certainly not refer to female temple prostitution in this verse. Now the philo passage you quoted there is interesting I don't think it really solves this problem, from what I know that still seems to be an exception to me. And I don't really think Paul referencing such a specific excpetion in this passage makes any sense.

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